Maria Christodoulou:
So, the oak tree was considered the most sacred tree in Ancient Greece. It was associated with Zeus who was the king of the Olympian gods. And Zeus was in control of the sky's thunderstorms. He would throw lightning bolts. And he was just the man in charge.
And there is scientific evidence that oak trees are the type of tree that get hit most by lightning. So, perhaps the ancient Greeks notice this happening and they said this must be Zeus's tree because he keeps throwing his landing bolts at it.
John Gallagher:
You are listening to HerbMentor Radio by LearningHerbs. I'm John Gallagher.
Tara Ruth:
And I'm Tara Ruth. Today, we're chatting with Maria Christodoulou. Maria is a clinical herbalist exploring the wisdom of ancient Greek herbal medicine based in Athens, Greece. She's the author of the Greek Herbalist Guide to the National Garden and the Greek Herbalist Guide to the Mountain. For more info, you can visit thegreekherbalist.com.
John Gallagher:
Maria, welcome. Thanks so much for joining us.
Maria Christodoulou:
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here with you.
John Gallagher:
And all the way from Athens. You're not from Athens originally, right?
Maria Christodoulou:
That's correct. I'm originally from New York and I moved to Athens about three years ago.
Tara Ruth:
What compelled you to move to Athens?
Maria Christodoulou:
Well, I consider myself a COVID baby because I was living in New York City at the time of COVID and there was a mass exodus of people from the city because it was such a difficult time. And Greece had already been on my mind. So, the opportunity came and I got on a plane. And when all the lockdowns were over in Europe, I have resettled here. And it's been a really great experience, of course, with its ups and downs, but I'm really happy to now be living in Athens.
John Gallagher:
And it seems like the first thing you did when you landed was went right outside and started identifying and using the herbs that grow in Athens. Is that correct?
Maria Christodoulou:
That is correct because a lot of the plants here, we have in the States. And they are the same plants, maybe different species, but it was quite a wonderful experience especially in wintertime which you would not expect. But wintertime is not so bleak and desolate period for the plants. They actually come up and it's green in Athens.
We don't get a lot of snow here, so we have calendula, dwarf nettle, mallow. This is February and the hillsides and even the cracks in the sidewalks have color and flowers blooming. So, it's really fun.
Tara Ruth:
That's so beautiful.
Maria Christodoulou:
Yeah.
Tara Ruth:
I'd love to hear more about how you work with these plants like mallow, for example. Can you tell us a little bit about mallow?
Maria Christodoulou:
Sure.
John Gallagher:
Is it like that little mallow that's like the weed or is it like the big marshmallow that you grow in a garden or?
Maria Christodoulou:
Well, this mallow is wild. And I live near a park in Athens. I'm in the center of Athens. And it's a medium-size leaf so it's not super small and it's a Malva species. There's a variety of Malva species here. And it hasn't started to flower yet, but the leaves just spread across. As much space as they can find, they will just spread very easily.
And I really like to use it in my herbal tea blends when I'm feeling really frazzled and stressed. And I find it's a very good herb to soften stressed edges. So the edges that I feel when I've got a lot going on and I just need some softness in my life. That's kind of how I see mallow, as a very soft, gentle energy, even though it's very vibrant and good for respiratory system, digestive system. I really use it for me in an herbal tea blend to soften the edges when I'm feeling hard and tired essentially.
Tara Ruth:
I love that you're bringing in that idea, the energetics around softness. And with an herb that feels so mucilaginous, too-
Maria Christodoulou:
Exactly.
Tara Ruth:
... and creates this soft texture, viscous texture sort of blend.
John Gallagher:
Will you make a cold infusion when you do that?
Maria Christodoulou:
Well, I use the mallow leaves and flowers. And I do a regular hot infusion with some other herbs, so sometimes I like to blend it with hawthorn leaves and flowers and berries. I put in some olive leaves, maybe some nettles. So, whatever I have, really whatever I see first is what I put in the teapot.
John Gallagher:
Oh, I just gave you an idea, whatever-I-see-first tea.
Maria Christodoulou:
Yes. Yeah. It's like this all sounds great. Let's throw some herbs together. And that's my herbal tea for the day. I make a big pot, so.
Tara Ruth:
Delicious. Oh, that sounds great. You also talked about dwarf nettle which I'm not familiar with dwarf nettle. Can you talk about that plant and how you like to work with that one?
Maria Christodoulou:
Sure. So, this is another one that I see growing wild. So, I'll see mallow, calendula, dwarf nettle, arugula. They're just all neighbors in the same patch of land and in the city center. So, dwarf nettle doesn't grow very tall so that's why it's called dwarf nettle. And it also has the nice stings on it to kind of remind you what kind of plant this is.
Tara Ruth:
Not soft.
John Gallagher:
Yeah, yeah.
Maria Christodoulou:
Not soft. And I of course use it in herbal tea blends. It's very easy to find in herbal tea shops here. And again, I use it when I need a boost in energy, if I'm feeling depleted. If I'm sitting at the computer a lot, I feel very depleted because just work staring at a screen is not very healthy for many hours. So, nettles, dwarf nettle really helps revitalize the body and replenish the minerals. So, it's one of my go-to herbs for that.
John Gallagher:
So, we're talking about and everyone in Urtica species like the stinging nettle that a lot of people listening know. And is it that there's not much of the larger stinging nettle growing near you or is it just that the dwarf nettle is accessible and is easier to use or?
Maria Christodoulou:
Exactly, exactly, yup. This is just a species that it grows wild here, it's easy to find, easy to harvest. I've also made nettle pesto which is delicious and it's just an alternative to drinking it if you can eat it. So, you just have to be careful when you're removing all the leaves from the stems just to wear gloves. But it's also a food source.
John Gallagher:
Yeah. Is it a common food source or a lot of people traditionally use it or still use it or are they looking like you're a little crazy when you're out there picking it?
Maria Christodoulou:
Well, it's interesting because when I first moved to Greece, I had expected to find an herbal community here. And one of the surprises about living in Greece is that herbal medicine isn't trendy here or there's a disconnect between the generations. So the older generations have a very close connection to the land because they probably grew up in the mountainside in a village or they still live there as opposed to people who live in the city and who have never lived in a village or they just aren't connected to the plants in the same way.
So, what's happening now is there's a loss of cultural traditions with plants. So, people may not know what mallow and dwarf nettle are used for or calendula even. So, one of my goals of living here is to change that and to make it trendy again to drink herbal tea.
John Gallagher:
Right.
Tara Ruth:
Yes.
John Gallagher:
And do that through the point of view of their own heritage, right? Versus ...
Maria Christodoulou:
Exactly, exactly. It's abundant here. The amount of medicinal plants growing wild is phenomenal.
Tara Ruth:
In the process of living in Athens and moving there and just kind of figuring more about the landscape of herbalism in terms of how popular it is in different generations, how have you gone learning about the herbs that are growing around you? Has it been talking more with elders or doing historical research or?
Maria Christodoulou:
Yeah, that's a great question. So, it's been a combination of efforts. A couple years ago, I was the recipient of a grant from NYU. They have a society that gives out grants for research and community-based events.
So, I had a grant that helped me travel around Greece and meet with women in particular who still work with the land. So, I met with a woman who has continued on the traditions of wine-making. She lives in the countryside in the Peloponnese. I met with a woman who runs a center that focuses on Hippocratic medicine and his legacy in herbal medicine and she's on the island of Kos. And I met with an herbalist who lives in Corfu and she knows quite a lot about herbs because she did online courses with teachers in the US.
John Gallagher:
I just watched a TV show that takes place on Corfu.
Maria Christodoulou:
Oh, yeah.
John Gallagher:
The Masterpiece Theater one, Durrells of Corfu. You got to watch it.
Maria Christodoulou:
Yeah, it's very popular.
John Gallagher:
Yeah.
Maria Christodoulou:
And Corfu is a beautiful island. So, yeah, everywhere you go, there's so much to learn everywhere you go and everyone has a different perspective. And I've also done a lot of reading and research. And being out in the landscape also, I've learned a lot about how plants grow and where they grow and where different species are concentrated. So, it's definitely been a learning experience and I've had a lot of really interesting conversations with people.
So I've just accumulated all of that over the past three years and there's still so much for me to learn. So, I'm very excited to see what the future holds and how many more people I can meet and continue on promoting all the cultural traditions with plants here.
Tara Ruth:
What a beautiful way to learn about the herbs, just bringing in all these different personal connections and building relationships and then also doing that more research.
John Gallagher:
You were just talking about nettles before and one of my favorite meals that Kimberly make me on my birthday or something is spanakopita with nettle. Is that just like an American herbalist going, "Let's put nettles in Spanakopita," or do people in Greece ever put nettles in spanakopita?
Maria Christodoulou:
They do. They do. I have. I have. And we also have-
John Gallagher:
Did we make that up?
Maria Christodoulou:
No, you did not. We also have plants here that are wild grasses. They call them horta which translates to wild grasses or wild green plants. And they have horta pies. So, instead of spinach pies, they have horta pies. So, nettles would be included in that.
And horta also is a side dish at a Greek restaurant here so it's very common. Everyone here knows what horta is. And depending on the time of year, horta can be a different plant. So, it could be Amaranth leaves, it could be almira which I don't know what the English word is but I think it's sea fennel or something related to sea fennel.
So yes, spinach spanakopita can be any green depending on the season or month or what is most abundant. So yeah, of course, nettles, put them in.
Tara Ruth:
You also mentioned arugula earlier. Is that another herb that just gets thrown in to the pies, etcetera? Or how do you like to work with arugula?
Maria Christodoulou:
So, arugula is a very common plant here, also grows wild. And it's used raw in salad mixes. And it's really quite interesting. When I first saw arugula at the nearby park, I was looking at it and I was like, "That looks so familiar." And I was like, "This can't be arugula. Arugula, how does it grow wild?"
So, it was just one of these moments of like, yes, there is arugula growing wild. And right now, it's in flower here. And yeah, you can just eat it from the ground. It's just there. If you're in a public space, you just have to be careful of if there are people walking their dogs, what could be left behind. So, you just have to be careful of unintended consequences of picking wild plants in a public space.
John Gallagher:
Right, right, yeah.
Tara Ruth:
Totally.
John Gallagher:
Yeah.
Tara Ruth:
Well, that would rock my world just to see arugula growing wildly.
Maria Christodoulou:
Yeah, it's pretty amazing.
John Gallagher:
You also mentioned earlier calendula.
Maria Christodoulou:
Yes.
John Gallagher:
Yes. And so, calendulas are just growing wild everywhere too? And-
Maria Christodoulou:
Exactly, yes. My gosh.
John Gallagher:
So you don't need a garden.
Maria Christodoulou:
You don't. You just need access to an outside space.
John Gallagher:
Yeah, clean from pollution.
Maria Christodoulou:
Exactly. And dogs and animals. I led a botanical hike on Sunday and we found a spot on a mountain which is Athens is surrounded by mountains so by car it's only 10 minutes. So, we did a botanical hike and we found a patch of calendula. And it is just such a treat to see a patch of calendula especially in wintertime because it just is a reminder of happiness. And it's such an herb that even when we take it internally, it helps boost our mood. It's like the sunshine herb.
So, I did collect some calendula. I'm drying it now. I'm going to put it in some herbal teas. And the calendula species in Greece is Calendula arvensis. And it's a smaller flower head. And it's known to be more potent than calendula officinalis. So it's higher in resin and it can have a stronger effect on the body when you use it for medicinal purposes. So, it's a very cool plant especially to find growing wild because it's really good medicine on so many levels.
Tara Ruth:
Wow. And is it the same kind of effects but just a more amplified version like digestive and skin and lymphatic support?
Maria Christodoulou:
Exactly, exactly, yes.
Tara Ruth:
That's so cool. Just concentrated in those cute little flower heads.
Maria Christodoulou:
Yeah. And thyme also, there have been studies that the thyme species in Greece also are more potent. And one of the reasons is the climate because if the climate is if plants are more stressed in a climate, they have less water content so they have higher medicinal qualities, more phytoconstituents with less water content. So, yeah, there's just a great medicine growing all around us, great source of plant medicine.
John Gallagher:
Yeah, yeah. Well, that's like yarrow in my yard or in the wetter part of the state, you take it and chew on it and it just tastes like something green.
Maria Christodoulou:
Yes.
John Gallagher:
But then you go to Eastern Washington where it's dry and then all of a sudden, it's like, "Whoa, that's yarrow." And so yeah-
Maria Christodoulou:
Exactly, yes.
John Gallagher:
... it actually makes a big difference.
Maria Christodoulou:
Climate makes a big difference. Soil, pollution, of course. So, all good medicine.
John Gallagher:
Gosh, Tara, Maria's life seems like a dream. I mean, right?
Tara Ruth:
I know.
John Gallagher:
Going to this-
Tara Ruth:
Oh my goodness.
John Gallagher:
... sunny Mediterranean country and immersing yourself in the culture and the food and the wine and the herbs.
Tara Ruth:
And she's done so much research. She's really living the medicine, too. It's so beautiful.
John Gallagher:
Yeah. Living the medicine, I really like that. I think that should be a name of a course right there.
Tara Ruth:
Noted.
John Gallagher:
You got that. Write that down.
Tara Ruth:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Gallagher:
Speaking of courses, Folk Medicine-
Tara Ruth:
Speaking of courses.
John Gallagher:
Folk Medicine is a course that you just produced on HerbMentor.
Tara Ruth:
Yes, with Shereel Washington.
John Gallagher:
So, what similarities do you see between ... Well, what is that course and what similarities do you see between the approach of that course and what we're talking to Maria about?
Tara Ruth:
Yeah. So, the full name of the course is Folk Medicine: Changing the Narrative. And in this course, Shereel Washington walks us through the fundamentals of what is folk medicine and really breaking things down so that we can make really powerful herbal remedies in our own kitchens, connect with the ingredients around us that are accessible, and then also ask ourselves what kinds of medicines our ancestors made and how we can connect with these ancestral practices through our hands, through making things in our kitchens by ourselves and also in community.
John Gallagher:
Community, making things with our hands, keeping things simple. I'm sure these are the foundations of Greek folk medicine and herbalism as well and all folk herbalism around the world.
Tara Ruth:
Yeah. And finding the complexity in the simplicity too. It might just be, for example, in Folk Medicine, Shereel created so many great recipes and one of them was a fig-infused wine. And it's just figs but there's something really profound about the simplicity there and you get to learn more about that specific plant and then all of the different gifts that it offers and the different ways that it will shine in different forms.
So, with this fig wine, you'll have the wine itself but then you have the figs leftover too after you infuse them and they're going to be wine-infused figs.
John Gallagher:
Oh.
Tara Ruth:
Yeah, yeah.
John Gallagher:
See, this is the fun part of herbalism. It isn't about making capsules and tinctures and trying to fix our health problems. It's about life, living the medicine as you just said, right?
Tara Ruth:
Yeah, for sure. It's so fun. And making things taste good too.
John Gallagher:
Yeah, yeah.
Tara Ruth:
When I first started learning about herbs, I got really excited about tinctures and really, really powerful things. And I would notice a lot of these tinctures would just sit on my shelves for years. And while there are totally tinctures in folk medicine, there's a really different approach here. It's a lot of food-based things. And then also maybe the tincture has some honey in it or instead of being made with a really high percentage alcohol, it's made with bourbon. There's all these little things to make these medicines more accessible to us and to the folks in our lives.
John Gallagher:
Well, we both know herbalists who really geek out and stay in the area of those tinctures and helping people in chronic conditions in that medical, clinical herbalism. But for most of us, especially probably for 99% of the people listening to this podcast or a part of LearningHerbs or HerbMentor, it really is what you're saying. It's like that's what keeps it interesting.
Tara Ruth:
For sure. And there's another great part of this Folk Medicine series called Embracing Bioregional Herbalism. And in this section, Shereel really talks about how to get to know the plants that are growing around you. And even the grocery stores around you. What do they stock? What herbal things did they stock?
And I am thinking about Maria talking about that and just the specificity of the plants around her and how we can all kind of cultivate those really specific relationships with the plants that grow around us and what gifts do those offer.
John Gallagher:
That sounds wonderful.
Tara Ruth:
Sounds pretty great, right?
John Gallagher:
MM-hmm. So you can get access to that and the entire LearningHerbs course library on HerbMentor. And of course, you can go to learningherbs.com to join anytime. But as a listener to HerbMentor Radio, we have a little URL set up, easy to remember. What is it again, Tara?
Tara Ruth:
HerbMentorRadio.com.
John Gallagher:
HerbMentorRadio.com.
Tara Ruth:
HerbMentorRadio.com.
John Gallagher:
So, make sure to get that down. Side effects include ...
Tara Ruth:
Having a really good time for not a lot of money. It's a really good deal.
John Gallagher:
Having a good time for not a lot of money is really that should be our slogan. A good time without a lot of money.
Tara Ruth:
Unofficial slogan.
John Gallagher:
We should get back to our interview with Maria. And I mentioned earlier, I'm watching with Kimberly that show The Durrells of Corfu that takes place on the island of Corfu. It's like a PBS thing. And you just want to be there when you're watching this. And so, I'm just like, "Oh, the sun and the culture and everything." So, just talking to Maria really sounds like that could be a real thing, so.
Tara Ruth:
Yeah, I got to go on tour of some sort.
John Gallagher:
I know. I know.
Tara Ruth:
Perhaps.
John Gallagher:
I'm going to be talking about that soon. You're up on the podcast. Anyway, thanks, Tara, for talking with me for a moment on the side, a little side hall conversation, and I think we should get back into the interview. Maria's waiting for us.
Tara Ruth:
Absolutely. It's my pleasure.
John Gallagher:
We're coming. We're coming if you're right there.
Tara Ruth:
Well, Maria, you were talking about how in a lot of your work, you weave in this botanical history. And you've also talked about plant lore and mythology. And I'm wondering, can you share about a few of your favorite Greek myths that include herbs?
Maria Christodoulou:
Yes, yes, I'd be happy to. So, one of-
Tara Ruth:
Story, go ahead.
Maria Christodoulou:
Yeah. One of my favorite plants in botanical mythology and even in herbal medicine where I use it in my herbal teas is bay laurel or Laurus nobilis. And I feel like bay laurel is very underused in herbal medicine. And in Greece, it is a very common culinary plant. People use it in their lentil soup to help with digestion.
It's a common tree. You do see it around growing. The National Garden is nearby in the center of Athens and I do plant walks there. And there are probably like 20 bay laurel trees there.
Yeah. So it's really great to see, wow, this is where the bay leaf comes from. It's not just a spice from the supermarket and it's not an unknown tree. It exists and it really thrives here.
So, the myth that is associated with bay laurel has to do with Apollo. Apollo was the god of the sun, music, medicine and prophecy. So, he had a lot of responsibilities. And he was struck by an arrow by Cupid or arrows. So, arrows struck him by one of his love arrows and Apollo fell in love with a nymph called Daphne.
So, Daphne was very happy doing what she was doing. And then she has this god chasing after her and really wanting to possess her and for her to be his. So, she's not interested. She kept running away from him. And finally she got so tired of him chasing after her. She cried out to the gods for help.
So, the gods answered her prayer and they transformed her into the bay laurel tree. When Apollo caught up with her, he sees that she's transforming into this tree and he says, "I'm so sad that you can never be mine, but I will honor you always. Your leaves will never turn brown or fall off. My love for you will be eternal and I will crown my victors with your leaves."
So the tree became a symbol of his devotion and love. It became a symbol of protection because the tree protected her from something she did not want. And it became a symbol of honor. So, for all of the victors at competitions in honor of Apollo, they would be crowned with bay laurel leaves. And the term laurel or laureate is of honor. So, the name means honor.
John Gallagher:
Oh.
Tara Ruth:
Oh my gosh.
Maria Christodoulou:
So, it has a lot of symbolism still today. And the Greek name for bay laurel is Daphne which is the name of the nymph or the young woman from antiquity. So, she's still alive in these trees. We still call her by the name. And the tree is embodied. She's embodied in this tree.
If you ever go to New York City, to the Metropolitan Museum of Art, there is a life-sized statue depicting Apollo and Daphne in an almost embraced because he never got her to be his. So, his arms are not quite touching her and she's transforming into this tree. So, this myth has been depicted in countless works of art and this one in particular is quite a special one if you're ever in New York City to see it.
So, we have herbal medicine in museums and most people don't know.
Tara Ruth:
That's so powerful.
John Gallagher:
Well, what a great way to teach through the stories and then people remember, right?
Maria Christodoulou:
Exactly.
John Gallagher:
More about the herbs when they can tell a story behind it.
Maria Christodoulou:
Exactly.
John Gallagher:
Did the story connect to any of the healing uses of bay?
Maria Christodoulou:
Sure. So, bay laurel is very good. Well, energetically it can be used as a protection plant so you can burn bay laurel leaves as an incense to help clear a room from unwanted energies. If someone came over your house and they just left a sour taste in your mouth afterwards, their energy was negative. You can use it as an incense to clear that out.
For the immune system, for the physical body, bay laurel leaves are actually very good to boost the immune system. It's an antibacterial, antiviral. It's also very good topically if you have inflammation or arthritis. So, things that you don't want, bay laurel can help you get rid of it. It can be used internally or topically as a poultice. So, so many uses, so many uses.
Tara Ruth:
At least in California where I'm at, the species of bay trees we have, they have bay nuts that people will harvest and roast and then go through a whole process to kind of turn them into like a nut butter. Do y'all do that as well over there?
Maria Christodoulou:
That would be so cool. I have not heard of that here. So, I've not seen it. So I'm not sure. Maybe it was done in the past but unfortunately not in the present. But I'd be really curious to hear more about how people in California do that. That's really cool.
Tara Ruth:
Yeah, my gosh. And for folks who want to learn more about bay as well, you wrote an amazing bay monograph plant profile for HerbMentor that I had the pleasure of getting to read and offer very minimal edits on. It was so amazing. Yeah.
Maria Christodoulou:
Me too.
Tara Ruth:
And I'm really grateful to you for writing that. I learned a lot through that process.
Maria Christodoulou:
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.
Tara Ruth:
Yeah. And the way that you just weave in myth and story is so beautiful because that's how I learned about things as well. That's how it stays in my memory.
Maria Christodoulou:
Exactly.
John Gallagher:
In your research in myths and stories and history, what surprised you the most about the use of plants in Ancient Greece?
Maria Christodoulou:
Oh, so prevalent in almost all of the religious ceremonies, the rituals, herbal medicines written by physicians. I have found my research, I'm reading, I reference a lot of Dioscorides who was an ancient Greek physician who wrote a textbook called De Materia Medica. He's from the first century. And I am always impressed reading about the concoctions that they made and how much more diverse they are than ours today and how more complicated they were.
One of the remedies or one of the ways that they took herbal medicines was infusing herbs in wine. And we don't do this today. We infuse herbs in alcohol and we take tinctures. But herbal wine in Ancient Greece was very common. And it was an entire chapter in his encyclopedia, in his text. It was an entire book.
So, it's one of the things we've lost the practice of today. And just the creativity of how to use plants, I don't know, I'm just so impressed.
John Gallagher:
Yeah. Well, with the wine, I wonder if it was like, hey, we make the wine first and then we're infusing herbs in it and bottling it or I'm wondering if they're fermenting the grapes with the healing herbs versus adding them to infuse later. Do you think that might be the case or?
Maria Christodoulou:
Yes, it depended on the herb but they would take grape must. And so, squished grapes and let it ferment and then add the herbs with it and then make the wine, the wine would just come out from that. I don't exactly know how to make wine, but they had a whole process and they put in the herbs with the wine and the grapes and then they let it sit for three months or six months, so a good amount of time. And then they would store it in a jug, a clay jug, and then use it when needed. So-
John Gallagher:
I think this is an opportunity for you, Maria, to bring this back.
Maria Christodoulou:
Well, I agree.
John Gallagher:
Now, I'm talking about it's time to learn to brew some wine. You are in Greece after all.
Maria Christodoulou:
Yes. I know. I am working on that. So, we'll see. Hopefully in the next year or so, hopefully sooner. I did write an article recently for the Journal of the American Herbalist Guild about ancient wine in Greece or wine in Ancient Greece, so herbal wine. So, if people are interested, it's in the Journal of the American Herbalist Guild, the fall 2023 issue. So, lots of cool things.
John Gallagher:
Subscribe, everybody. Go to americanherbalistguild.org I imagine or Google them.
Maria Christodoulou:
Exactly.
John Gallagher:
And be part of it. Yeah.
Maria Christodoulou:
Exactly.
Tara Ruth:
Were there any particular formulas for the herbal wines that stood out to you or is it just kind of like a free for all of different kinds of herbal wine?
Maria Christodoulou:
Well, they used a lot of different herbs, just also single herbs in wine. And let's say for example, they put thyme, they put thyme in the wine, they infused it then they made thyme wine.
A lot of the uses that we use for thyme today are similar. So, there's a lot of overlap with how the plant is still used today as medicine, but it could also be as depending on the dosage and the frequency of use, it could also really help with more serious issues of the body.
So, because that's all they had really as medicine, they had herbs, they had plants. And they had other techniques as well that they developed over time but they didn't have pharmaceuticals or hospitals as we do today. So, they really knew plants I feel much, much better than we do today.
John Gallagher:
Well, Greek medicine is pretty famous. So, yeah, the reason-
Maria Christodoulou:
Yeah, yeah. And all of the cultures around the Mediterranean region who have a similar materia medica, the Romans, the Egyptians, the Persians, this whole region, people were really embedded into herbal medicine. And each culture really has brought down to us the gifts of their traditions.
So, I agree, the Greeks definitely have a big influence but we can always learn from other cultures as well.
John Gallagher:
Well, it's funny you say that. Tara just produced for LearningHerbs a series with Shereel Washington called Folk Medicine: Changing the Narrative and she's a black herbalist from Oakland and she brings a lot of her traditions and cultures and uses those to inspire people to find theirs. And I love that we're having this conversation because it shows people that there's traditions and medicinal herb traditions around the world that you can explore and learn from your own heritage or one you happen to be more interested in.
Maria Christodoulou:
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And it's so great that we're in this movement right now where we are remembering all these traditions and we're talking about them. So, otherwise they would just stay buried and it would be so unfortunate.
John Gallagher:
Right. And you don't have to have Greek heritage to go to Greece or to join you and learn from you, right?
Maria Christodoulou:
Exactly.
John Gallagher:
I mean, it's about your interest and passions.
Maria Christodoulou:
Yes, of course.
John Gallagher:
And much fun for you. And the fact that you're bringing these, I don't know, Greek stories, history, mythology, for those of us who learned these things in high school or college, we know this is a culture we've learned a lot about, at least I have.
Maria Christodoulou:
Yes.
John Gallagher:
So, it does kind of fit like, "Oh, how can I fit herbs into this history?" It's like when I was in college and I took art history classes and I was like, "Oh, this is another way of looking at history is through art." And then you're not looking at it through all the wars all the time. You can look at it through something beautiful like art.
And here, you're giving an opportunity to learn through herbalism, the culture through herbalism and food and wine, right?
Maria Christodoulou:
Yes.
John Gallagher:
The fun, the important part.
Maria Christodoulou:
Exactly, exactly. So, many different ways to learn and be inspired by ancient traditions and continue on the heritage of herbal medicine.
Tara Ruth:
I love all these little threads too that remain as hints to some of these ancient stories. Like how you were saying, the bay tree is called Daphne or talking about the word laureate and honor. And that's such a sweet part of learning about ancestral herbalism practices is finding those little hints and those through threads that have survived so many years to point us back.
Maria Christodoulou:
And that's the impressive part. Yes, exactly. It's been 2000, 3000 years more, so it's nice to be a part of that conversation today.
Tara Ruth:
Absolutely. I'm wondering, would you like to share about another herbal myth? So, I love mythology so I'm curious if you have any other-
John Gallagher:
I'm so obsessed with Greek mythology when I was a kid reading those stories like the Cliff Note versions of the Odyssey stories.
Maria Christodoulou:
Yes. So, another myth that I really enjoy sharing is about the oak tree. And the oak tree is the Quercus is the genus and there's several different species. So, the oak tree was considered the most sacred tree in Ancient Greece. It was associated with Zeus who was the king of the Olympian gods.
And Zeus was in control of the sky, thunderstorms. He would throw lightning bolts. And he was just the man in charge. And there is scientific evidence that oak trees are the type of tree that get hit most by lightning. So, perhaps the ancient Greeks noticed this happening and they said, "This must be Zeus's tree because he keeps throwing his bolts at it."
So, they associated this tree with Zeus and they built a very famous sanctuary called Dodoni. Or in English, it would be called Dodona. So, in antiquity, it was a very famous sanctuary. It's located in northwestern Greece and it's an archeological site today. But in antiquity, people would travel to this sanctuary and for whatever problem they had, they would ask the priestesses there for help.
And one of the cool things about this sanctuary was that it was the trees that delivered the oracle. So the priestesses would stand in a grove of oak trees and they would listen to the sounds around them. So, whatever sounds of the grove they heard, they interpreted it as the oracle of Zeus. So, whether it was the leaves rustling at a certain moment or a bird flapping its wings or the acorns falling to the ground, all of those were symbols and suggestions or sounds that would get interpreted to answer each person's question.
John Gallagher:
People might look at and hear stories like that and go, "Oh, all these ancient people, how quaint." But it was rituals like that that connected people to the natural world and made them make decisions to not harm it because that grove of oak trees was so sacred, they wouldn't consider chopping it down and put up something or another.
Maria Christodoulou:
Exactly. Yeah.
John Gallagher:
So, there's a lot of wisdom, right?
Maria Christodoulou:
Yes. Yeah. So, the oak trees, people still call it the tree. So, it just is the definition of the tree like a tree like oak tree is the tree. And yeah, people still know it is connected to Zeus but it has a very beautiful presence. It has a powerful presence that symbolizes strength, wisdom, power. All of these things that Zeus had represented, it was embodied in the oak tree.
John Gallagher:
Kind of curious, I mean, Greece has been Christian for so long. How are the ancient myths woven in and respected and believed in the culture?
Maria Christodoulou:
Yeah. So people are they're very, what's the word, they're very familiar with all of the Greek myths. They grow up with them. They've taught them in school. It's definitely part of their cultural heritage and it's ingrained in their history. So, it's definitely something that they teach their children and it's part of their educational system.
So, it's been separated from religion and it's now become just part of ancient Greek history and something to be proud about. Because also it's so popular around the world for people to learn about Greek myths, it's a point of pride for Greek people. And the religious part, there's not many practices with plants as compared to antiquity and how they use them.
But surprisingly, the Christian Church does have some plants associated with sacredness and holiness incorporated in the rituals of the Greek Church. And one example that I'll quickly tell you is about the palm tree. And there's a myth about the palm tree and antiquity.
There was Zeus's wife, Hera, she was pregnant with twins. She was giving birth to Artemis and Apollo. And she landed on an island. And as she was giving birth, she clung to a palm tree. And the palm tree became a symbol of victory and celebration because it helped her through a difficult moment delivering birth. The palm tree became incorporated into the festivals and religious customs of both the god and goddess, Apollo and Artemis. So all of their temples, there was always palm branches and that the motif.
Fast forward to today, in the Christian Church, there is a holiday named after the palm tree. And it's called Palm Sunday.
John Gallagher:
Yup. I was going to say.
Maria Christodoulou:
So, the symbolism of the palm tree continues into Christianity. And the Greek Church for Palm Sunday, palms are handed out. And so, that myth, that symbolism got carried through from antiquity to modern Christianity. So, there are some overlaps and there's more examples of that too. So it's not just that the ancient Greek religious practices are completely dead, some of them are still embedded in Christianity.
John Gallagher:
You find you have elders and people and connections to do what you can to bring back older uses of plants or rituals. Are you finding that harder that you're having to almost incorporate things you're learning from other Western cultures and sort of piece things back together? Is it hard to find a solid tradition?
Maria Christodoulou:
I think it depends on where you are in Greece because people who live in villages and a lot of people live in villages, most people live in the city, of course, but people who live in villages are very isolated and they have their own traditions and customs and maybe some peculiar superstitions.
So, everywhere you go, you can learn something new from someone from the older generation. And not everything is everywhere you go. So, it's interesting that there could be some mountain traditions with certain plants that I won't know about until I visit this specific village and I get to speak to this specific elder. But it takes time to know who those people are and for them to warm up to someone just popping in for them to share their secrets.
Tara Ruth:
Of course, yeah.
John Gallagher:
Absolutely.
Tara Ruth:
Hearing you mention the mountain landscape, prior to this interview, you said that this landscape is one of your biggest inspirations. And I'm wondering, can you talk a little bit about what inspires you so much about this landscape and some of its ties to ancient sacred rituals that included plants?
Maria Christodoulou:
Absolutely. So Greece, surprisingly, is covered 80% mountains.
Tara Ruth:
Whoa. What?
Maria Christodoulou:
So, Greece is very mountainous country which people don't realize because when people come here for a vacation, all they think about is going to the beach which is understandable because there are so many islands here and beautiful beaches. But mountains are everywhere and they're really quite impressive.
Mount Olympus is the highest mountain peak in Greece. In Ancient Greece, it was the home of the Olympian gods. So, that mountain in particular is entrenched with a lot of mystery and mythology. And what I find really inspiring about the mountains is that they have such a strong connection to antiquity and the present and they hold so many secrets.
So, if I'm going on a hike, I'm going to be surprised what plants I'll find. Maybe I'll come across an archeological site that used to be a sacred altar. Or just the history of the mountain of how it's used today, there is a specific plant called mountain tea and it's in the Lamiaceae family. It's in the mint family. And the Latin name is Sideritis.
And mountain tea is native to Greece. And depending on which mountain you are on, there'll be a different species of this plant. So it's mountain-specific and species-specific. So, that herb in particular is very well-known across Greece. It's very good for the immune system, respiratory system. It's a go-to herb for people when they're sick. Similar to sage, how that plant can help the body. And it grows on mountains. So, it's a very mountain-specific plant and it connects people with the landscape.
Tara Ruth:
Wow. That's so magical that there's different species on each. Oh my God.
Maria Christodoulou:
Yup.
John Gallagher:
For the botanical geek, for the herb nerds are, I think you're going to be going over there soon.
Maria Christodoulou:
Yes.
Tara Ruth:
Mountain to mountain.
John Gallagher:
I know a lot of people, Maria, listening have this fantasy now that they want to go to Greece and go around the mountains and seaside with you and looking for plants and hearing the stories and everything. And I'm wondering, do you do tours and what do they entail and what do you weave into these tours?
Maria Christodoulou:
Yes, I do tours and I'm so excited about them.
John Gallagher:
I got it.
Tara Ruth:
How did you know, John?
John Gallagher:
I don't know.
Maria Christodoulou:
I'm so excited. So, this year, I have created a variety of tours. Some are on islands. Some are on mountains. And each one will have a combination of herbal medicine, botanical hikes, meeting with locals who really know the land and who have their own practices of herbal medicine or harvesting olives during harvest season.
What else? There's so much I could share. Rituals, oracles. So, an upcoming herbal tour will be on the island of Kythira where a famous herbalist Juliette de Bairacli Levy once lived.
John Gallagher:
Yes.
Maria Christodoulou:
And that's-
John Gallagher:
You watched that movie? It was very influential when that came out.
Maria Christodoulou:
Yeah. So, we're going to visit her cottage where she lived. And this year, the first tour that I hosted there was last year. And this year, hosting it again is going to be at the end of June. And Rosemary Gladstar and Tish Streeten will be our special guest this year. So, very excited about that.
John Gallagher:
So, let me get this straight. I can go to Greece, tour herbs with you in beautiful places and go to Juliette de Bairacli Levy's place with you and Rosemary Gladstar and Tish Streeten.
Maria Christodoulou:
Yes. But by the time this contest is live, we will be sold out. So maybe ... But I'm very excited about that one. And then, I'll also have some retreats that are in the summertime. In August, I'll have a retreat on the island of Samothrace which is known as the wild island. It's not populated with tourists. It's not fancy. It's really bare for people who really like being in nature. So we're going to immerse ourselves in that.
John Gallagher:
Wow.
Maria Christodoulou:
And then a couple of tours in Northern Greece in September and October, looking at mountain rituals and going to the Oracle of Dodoni to see the archeological site there and connect with Zeus and his oak tree.
So, really, really exciting tours and retreats this year. And of course, I would love herbalists from the states to come and really immerse themselves in Greek herbal medicine and the landscape here.
Tara Ruth:
Sounds so magical. I want to go.
John Gallagher:
I know. I know. And on the greekherbalist.com, I just want to mention rewind, there are other courses, there's some online things, and there's a blog and books that you could follow Maria. And next time, you'll be able to get into that tour with Rosemary and-
Maria Christodoulou:
Exactly.
John Gallagher:
Because you'll know about it.
Maria Christodoulou:
Exactly.
John Gallagher:
This is incredible.
Tara Ruth:
Wow.
Maria Christodoulou:
Thank you.
Tara Ruth:
Maria, thank you so much for joining us on HerbMentor Radio. I'm so grateful. And I now just want to geek out more about Greek mythology and plants.
Maria Christodoulou:
Yes.
John Gallagher:
And thanks for all your writing on LearningHerbs, HerbMentor. Look out for Maria's stuff there too. And as I have said, it's the greekherbalist.com. And Maria, thank you so much for joining us on HerbMentor Radio.
Maria Christodoulou:
Thanks so much, John. Yeah, it was my pleasure.
John Gallagher:
Oh, Tara, one more thing.
Tara Ruth:
Oh yeah, what's up?
John Gallagher:
Would you share an herb note with us?
Tara Ruth:
I would love to. Let's do this.
John Gallagher:
Yes.
Tara Ruth:
Welcome to Herb Notes. I'm Tara Ruth. Oh, Echinacea, how I love thee. This beautiful plant, not only supports pollinators with its abundant blooms, but also offers many benefits for us humans too. Echinacea angustifolia and Echinacea purpurea is most well-known for helping to address colds and flu, but its gifts go far beyond internal immune support.
Let's dive into three key benefits of echinacea. One, echinacea for cold and flu. As an immune stimulant, echinacea can help address mild symptoms associated with colds and flu like sore throat. At the onset of a cold, I often take echinacea tincture or drink echinacea tea to help support my immune system. When working with echinacea, I use the roots, leaves and flowers to support my body. And I reach for echinacea in more acute situations. And then if I'm looking for an herb to help bolster my immune system over time, I usually opt more for elderberry or astragalus.
Two, echinacea for mild wounds. Echinacea is an antimicrobial herbs, so I often apply it to little scrapes and cuts to help support my skin's healing process. For external usage, I like to create a topical fomentation with echinacea tea.
Three, echinacea for recurring acne. Just as echinacea can help support the skin's healing process from mild wounds, internal and external usage of echinacea can help address some skin conditions like recurring acne. This is due not only to echinacea's antimicrobial properties but also the effects it has on the lymphatic system. Echinacea is a lymphagogue that can help promote lymphatic drainage within the body.
And just to note, as an immune stimulant, there's conflicting info about whether echinacea may adversely impact folks with autoimmune conditions. So, if someone has an autoimmune condition, it's safest to avoid echinacea or see an herbalist to take stock of their specific needs.
Want to learn more about echinacea's benefits? Visit herbnotes.cards to grab a free deck of our top 12 herb notes. This has been Herb Notes with me, Tara Ruth.
John Gallagher:
HerbMentor Radio and Herb Notes are 100% sustainably wild-crafted podcasts written, performed, and produced by Tara Ruth and me, John Gallagher. Sound engineering by Zach Frank.
Visit HerbMentorRadio.com to subscribe on your favorite podcast app and to find out how you can be part of HerbMentor which is a website that you must see to believe. HerbMentor Radio is a production of LearningHerbs.com, LLC. All rights reserved.
Thank you very, very, very much for listening.
