Nathan Wright:
Someone was telling me a story about ginseng, of how ginseng, they planted some seeds of ginseng, and the moment those seeds started popping up out of the ground or the plants started coming up out of the ground, there was other ginseng there, and that other ginseng that was older started growing. So there was these big plants already growing the next year, next to these little baby seeds that were just planted. How is that so? It was almost as if that ginseng needed to be reawoken, reawoke to say, hey, we're still here. So there's some really fascinating things about plants that we have yet to understand.
John Gallagher:
You are listening to HerbMentor Radio by LearningHerbs. I'm John Gallagher.
Tara Ruth:
And I'm Tara Ruth. Today we're chatting with Nathan Wright. Nathan is a citizen of the Sault Ste. Marie Tribe of Chippewa Indians and member of his tribe's Crane Clan. Nathan is an herbalist and mycologist who combines both Anishinabek and conventional herbal knowledge into his herbal products business, Herbal Lodge. You can learn more about Nathan and his work at herballodge.com.
John Gallagher:
Nathan, welcome. It's an honor to have you here. Thank you for joining us today.
Tara Ruth:
Yes, thank you, Nathan.
Nathan Wright:
Well, thank both of you. I am really honored to be here, and I appreciate taking my day out here after being out and foraging for the last couple days to speak with you.
Tara Ruth:
Nathan, I first met you several months ago at the International Herbal Symposium, and you taught this incredible class on medicinal mushrooms in the Midwest, and I was totally blown away by your class. And in that class you talked about this chaga that you had harvested and this beautiful tree you had harvested this chaga on. And then today you were telling us about going on an adventure to try to find that tree again. Can you tell us a little bit about that journey and that adventure you were just on?
Nathan Wright:
Sure. Sure. I live up here in Northern Michigan, and I would say maybe 10 or 12 years ago is when Herbal Lodge, my company, started to sell chaga. And back at that time when we did that, no one was doing anything with chaga. So when we went out, we would find chaga that was gigantic, 20, 30, maybe even 40 years old. And when I say gigantic, I mean that, and I'll get to that here in a second. Most of them were about a foot and a half. There were two different shapes. There was one that was shaped like a diamond, like a cone, and another one was kind of an opening, almost like a mouth kind of sideways. And those were the two common ones that we've seen out there.
And the one area that we harvested from, I was really thankful after we were done harvesting it because as soon as we were done within a year or two, they clear cut that whole entire area, which the impact of that, not only just the clear cutting, but also the other, since then chaga has become very popular and everyone's harvesting it now and a lot of people aren't doing it responsible. And we have people with the clear cuts and we have what we call the birch bug, which is a bug that's infecting the birch tree. It has concerned me about chaga itself. Like are we in a situation where it's sustainable or are we losing that?
I know United Plant Savers is talking about putting it on, its at-risk list and something I would likely to support. So part of all these thoughts were going through my head. And I remember this tree, the huge birch tree that was on this large beautiful river up in the upper peninsula, which I care not to mention right now because of all the harvesters that are out there.
Tara Ruth:
Yeah, of course.
Nathan Wright:
And what happened is me and the co-founder were walking, 10 or 12 years ago we were walking along this river and we approached a tree, a huge birch tree, and on it was a gigantic black spot. And to be totally honest with you, our first thought was it was a bear. It was that large, and there was tall grass, to make it worse, tall grass. We couldn't quite see what was at the bottom of the tree. Were there a couple of cubs there or what is going on? So we approached cautiously, and I think that's true with anything that you initially see as a human that you've never seen before. Your mind is trying to go through, what is this? What do I need to do? Do I need to break out my knife out of my backpack? Am I going to fight to survive or what is this?
And so we approached it cautiously. I went forward just to make sure it wasn't a bear. And then when I got there at the tree, I was completely astounded. We actually recorded this. I haven't been able to find the footage, but it was actually recorded. It was probably about, and the reason why I've never spoke about this before, actually this is the first time publicly, is because I didn't want what ultimately happened to chaga to happen. I didn't want people to come to Michigan just to harvest chaga because it's so large. But unfortunately that has happened, and I'll get to that as we talk, as we continue our talk. So this chaga was about two and a half, three feet tall, about three feet tall and probably about two feet wide. It wasn't quite lumped off of a tree, like a perfect oval lump, like a half circle like some of them are.
It had its contours going up and down, but it basically filled up, if you're familiar with those paper lawn bags, the tall ones, not the grocery bags, but the tall ones, it basically filled that up with a little bit room to roll up and close at the top just a little bit.
Tara Ruth:
Oh my God.
Nathan Wright:
And that was one sustainable harvest. And when I came back, because this is along a big river, there's other smaller rivers and creeks that enter into this big river. So there's these dips, and some of them are small dips that go down 10 feet. Some of them are 40, 50 feet dips where you got to go all the way down and climb all the way back up a steep hill. And here I'm carrying a pack that I can barely carry as it is. I had to walk that all the way out, bugs biting, smack here, smack here, and my back was just, oh. But anyways, so we got out of there with it. It was a very magical day of wild foraging. And then I always wondered what happened to that tree. What happened to that big beautiful birch tree. I know I harvested it sustainably.
I didn't sit there and dig in like a lot of people do to get all the chaga out. I just knock it on one side and knock it on the other side. And what I get is what I get and leave the rest so it can grow. I've been thinking about this lately about going back, I want to go back and see what happened. So the recent journey that I made, which was four days ago, was to go back to find that particular chaga. So any questions so far?
Tara Ruth:
Oh my gosh. Well, how was the journey back?
Nathan Wright:
Well, so the journey back, I wanted to approach it differently and I wanted to try to remember where exactly it was that I was at because I didn't mark it down. This is back in the day when we didn't have our smartphones or anything like that. We were basically out there relying upon just your basic compass. And it was way out there. It's probably three, four miles. And in Michigan, three, four miles in a bush is quite a distance, especially if there's no trails. Even if you're walking along the river, it's pretty remote. It's not like there's paths that are developed or anything like that. To a certain point there is, but then after that, it's pretty much like you're literally bush whacking to get through.
I went on this journey again. This time I was completely unprepared. It was just a moment of excitement that I had. I said, I am going to go look for this tree because I have time to do this. And it was about 3:30 in the afternoon, no backpack. I had a couple straps and a paper bag and a knife and an ax and nothing else. I had a small bottle of water. Totally don't recommend doing this. This was just one of my moments of excitement to go do something adventurous and I end up finding out that it's usually times like that incredible things happen. I went on the journey, had my little bug spray. I was trying this new bug spray that I picked up on the way back from the IHS conference. And walked into an area that I believed was that area. And what I immediately started finding was more huge chaga.
Now that's very rare because you don't find huge chaga anymore. And I need to backtrack a little bit. A lot of the chaga now here in Michigan has been pretty much foraged just about every area. And the only way to find chaga nowadays is to go way, way out there in places that most humans never want to go. And I found out I'm still one of those humans that go into places where no one likes to go because I would've never found the chaga that I found in the spot. So when you walk into a spot that hasn't had any human activity, you can tell immediately just by the things that are laying on the ground how areas near a creek or river, there's no path at all except for maybe deer trails or animal trails. And so I started finding some gigantic chaga and I was astounded.
It just brought back so many memories of how every tree pretty much had some giant chaga on it. No backpack, just a paper bag. I started gathering this up as I continued my journey looking for this huge chaga tree. I started setting them down in spots that I would walk back out. I said, I'm going to set this here because I don't want to carry it in with me with all that weight and come out, I want to come out with that weight. So three different spots I put my chaga on my journey in, still looking for this tree. And then I run into a huge forest of hemlocks. And of course we all know hemlocks have reishi on the dead trees. And I found a patch of reishi I was excited about. This is all in this trip.
Tara Ruth:
Wow.
John Gallagher:
That's amazing.
Nathan Wright:
I continue the journey looking for this tree, and then I run across, at this point I wasn't sure if I was in the right spot because things weren't going to my memory. I wasn't coming across a big open field like we did when we first found this chaga. I ran into a patch of elders and I thought to myself, this is not it. There's no way this was part of the journey. And I went out to an area that was an open field with water, and I realized, this isn't even it. I'm not even on the right river. I'm off one of the many branches that come off this river. And I was so amazed at how easy it was to get turned around out there. And that's probably why no one goes out there, because not only can you get turned around, it could be a dangerous situation if you slip or fall and you're out there by yourself or there's bad weather that comes in.
We just had one of those rain sprouts, they're like a little tornado that actually hit the Straits of Mackinac just yesterday, and we've never even had one of those up here. It wasn't even on our weather report. I'm just saying when you're out here in this area, you never know what can happen.
John Gallagher:
We just did a podcast with a survival skills expert, Jason Knight who talked about just that, if you're going to be a wildcrafter and go out in the bush or in the woods, wilderness, here's some things you should know and be prepared for.
Nathan Wright:
I'd love to hear that one because I'm always open to new ideas and suggestions. And I'm sure many of us that go way out there, we have our share of stories of things that have occurred way out there and where we basically almost didn't make it back.
John Gallagher:
What makes a chaga harvest sustainable? Mostly is it growing on birch trees, live birch trees, right?
Nathan Wright:
Yes. Live birch trees, yes.
John Gallagher:
And so you're saying that you just are taking part of it and not scraping or getting every last piece, I guess there's part of it rooted into the bark and you just leave that.
Nathan Wright:
Right. So basically there's, over the years I've seen many different things put online about should harvest chaga here, you should do it this way and that. But basically the idea is that you're harvesting a portion of it. So the portion that you leave is usually, well, it could be two things. Like for example, if I see chaga on a tree that's smaller than my fist, then it's no go. I don't harvest it. I let that grow. If there's a spot on the tree where there's one of those left and then there's a bigger one on the other side, I'll take that one on the other side. And what I do is I basically, I use an ax because I know how to use an ax and not knock it into a tree. Some people aren't good at that, so they use a hammer to knock it off.
So basically I hit it on the left side and then I hit it on the right side. Usually once on each side, sometimes you have to do it twice. The idea is not to damage the tree. The idea is to leave enough of the chaga behind so it grows back. And so I've witnessed myself some of the trees that I've harvested chaga from, and I've seen the growth of it coming back, and I was very surprised. It grows a lot slower than I thought, but I think it all depends on the microclimates that it's in. I think there's certain areas that it might grow more. I think water being nearby helps out with that as well. And it might even be just the rain in general in that area, but some places it seems to grow faster than other areas.
John Gallagher:
It seems like as time has gone on and more plants have been labeled such as at-risk by United Plant Savers or endangered, that sometimes at that point, even though I might see something growing, I just let it be and then look out for people who do wildcraft sustainably or get their products. Is that what you recommend people do or do you think folks should harvest some if there's some growing around them or maybe if they're just using it for themselves? I know that can be confusing for a lot of people, because our listeners, 100% of our listeners are interested in doing this sustainably and in a good way.
Nathan Wright:
Sure. Sustainable harvesting especially of something like chaga mushroom is extremely important because it is starting to become scarce and it's because of the slow growth of it. I know Stamets I believe, he's been working on trying to grow chaga in the laboratory, and I guess successfully has. But there's a lot of question, not to disrespect anything that he's doing because I admire the guy, he's a really brilliant man. But there's a question of all these studies that have been conducted so far on chaga and there's been a lot, how is that going to pertain to those studies? Are we going to have to redo those studies for the laboratory girl? And that's something that I would like to see happen.
I do want to see the sustainability of it, but like many folks who know are familiar with wild harvested herbs and medicines, there usually is a lot more power to them. And perhaps because of the stresses that wild herbs and plants and mushrooms deal with when they're out in the wild, that makes them stronger. And there's a belief with the Anishinabek that when you harvest some of the plants or medicines, you're not necessarily looking for the most perfect one, which is typically the way we all think, oh, I got to get the perfect one. We look for the one that's been stressed and damaged because that usually is the one that has the most medicines and power, because it is sick, it is sick, and it's trying to fight those. I had a friend of mine, Joe, he was talking about willow and how there's a certain willow tree that attracts wasp and the wasp smell the yellow fungus that's on the root.
And because of that, they will go to that particular tree and put its little nest on the tree. And that is where it feels comfortable because it knows that fungus that's in the roots helps somehow protect that wasp babies. But it supposedly raises the number of constituents that are in that tree as a result because of the fungus that is in there, which kind of makes sense. I don't know where he got this information, but it kind of makes sense. So therefore that is a stronger tree to harvest from the leaves to use that whatever you're using it for. And if you think about it, that makes a lot of sense and it kind of breaks away the whole concept that we all have of finding the perfect herb plant, because it's not really about the perfect herb plant, it's about the ones that are stressing that have made it this long that are probably the most powerful.
John Gallagher:
But that probably applies more to trees or longer shrubby things that have been around a longer, I imagine than a fresh green, obviously. Right?
Nathan Wright:
I don't know. There are some plants, trees, there are some plants that are like that too, that are under certain stresses. I think it would apply to everything. That particular story applies to a willow tree, but I think it applies to probably other herbs as well.
John Gallagher:
That changes my view of paradigm of wildcrafting. How about yours, Tara?
Tara Ruth:
Well, I feel like for me, it just brings into this idea of working with plants that are working really hard to adapt to their specific environment and they're building up those constituents. And then also it makes me think about also bringing in your relationship with the plant or the mushroom. And I'm curious, Nathan, if you could tell us a little bit, going back to chaga, more about the gifts of chaga and your relationship with this plant or with this mushroom rather.
Nathan Wright:
Right. Well, to finish up the story about the large chaga, I didn't find it. I didn't find the tree. I was in the wrong area. I traveled back and I picked up the chaga along the way just with a backpack and basically some straps that I used for my canoe, I kind of looked like a huckleberry fin, except the big ball that's on the back of my stick is not a big ball. It's a bigger ball, it's about two and a half feet in circumference, and it's wrapped up as a ball. And I'm carrying it with a strap. I admit it was backbreaking. It was probably about 60 or 70 pounds, and it was wet. It was all wet. I started to get to a point, because I wanted to bring it to a certain river crossing, like a certain cross point because I realized it was almost 9:30 at night and I had to get out of there before it got dark.
It was really out there in a remote place. I carried it as far as I could, and I started to only make it a hundred feet at a time because it was just that heavy. So I finally found a spot, set it on top of a tree, took off and just got out of there as quickly as I can. And thankfully everything worked out, made it out right on time at 9:30. I continued to look for chaga the next few days. And the relationship with chaga, see chaga is something, one of the first medicines or certainly the first mushroom that I learned about, the Anishinabek, we call it Skitagaan. Skitagaan. And I don't exactly know what that means. Someone had tried to explain it to me that it meant the color and that there was other names for it as well.
But we used to use it for burning like an incense. You would see a lot of people with their bundles, and the bundles are kind of like our spiritual area where we would put down a red blanket and set our pipe down and our shell for smudging and all our other medicines, our traditional spiritual people. We would use chaga, would be a dried piece of chaga, and we'd burn that and we would have that smell going, kind of like the way we would do with sage or with sweetgrass. So that's when I first learned about chaga. But at that time I had no idea that it was incredible with medicinal value. I just knew that it was a medicine that we used but didn't know what it was for. I've had a long relationship with chaga, but I am at a point where I am even questioning do we continue to sell chaga, because of where it's at right now.
And so I'm personally going through that right now. I don't sell it on a wide level myself. I sell it mainly to customers and a few stores, a few small stores. But I'm just questioning at this point the use of chaga. It's become so popular and I understand that. But I think we need to start talking about some of the alternatives that are out there that are sustainable. And turkey tail and reishi are two good examples, two good backup mushrooms, both more sustainable. Certainly turkey tail is, and there's been a lot of recent studies with turkey tail and cancer treatment, which I think is great that that's out there, because it used to be chaga. Chaga was the thing to go to for everything. But now with more studies being done on other mushrooms, we're starting to learn, hey, these other mushrooms actually have some of the same effects.
And the only reason why we didn't know that is we've never taken the time to study them, and now we are. So those scientific studies on other mushrooms I think are going to help out with the sustainability of chaga. Chaga is a hard mushroom to wild forage because of the areas you have to go into. And I have noticed the decline of them when I go out there. I could tell almost immediately when someone's been out there already and how long roughly they've been out there. So does that answer your question Tara?
Tara Ruth:
Yeah, absolutely. And I love what this brings up too. I feel like a mushroom or a plant can get so trendy and all of a sudden it's everywhere that we can easily forget that, one, plants and mushrooms don't just do one thing. They're not just antiviral or just this, they have a whole story and so many different gifts that they offer. And there are so many plants and mushrooms that can offer those gifts as well, even though they all have their unique signature. I love that you're bringing in reishi and turkey tail here too.
John Gallagher:
Well, you think about Echinacea, that became the poster child of herbal medicine and then all of a sudden the wild harvesting patches were gone. But that was a plant that can easily be grown. But it's a little different with chaga because some plants and some mushrooms don't just grow in a field, they need forests, they need that land, and there's limited resources. And when there's people out there that don't know about sustainable wildcrafting, will go out and take everything. Tara, this is an amazing interview.
Tara Ruth:
It absolutely is. I'm so glad we get to chat with Nathan.
John Gallagher:
And there's so much more to come. Something I'm thinking is if people wanted to know more, this is HerbMentor Radio, and if you're an HerbMentor member, you can go to the herb section. And what do we have there, Tara?
Tara Ruth:
We have a chaga monograph. So in addition to having lots of herbal monographs and plant profiles, we also have some mushroom ones like chaga, which really dives into ways to prepare chaga and different things you might want to know about this mushroom and whether you even want to harvest it, et cetera.
John Gallagher:
Exactly. That's a really good point. There are amazing deep forest herbs where I live in the northwest, and I remember when I was first learning, I was so of course you're so interested in them because they're often the ones that are just so crazy Leo looking or whatever, and you're just like, well, that must be powerful medicine. And there's one particular I'm thinking, like devil's club for example, which is related to ginseng. And early on, yeah, I learned how to harvest it, and I made a little bit of tincture once, but to myself, I said, you know what, this is not an abundant plant and I don't really need this. But I wanted to learn about it and see what it tasted like and all.
But still to this day, I go and I appreciate it's medicine by being with it and walking through the woods and something I look forward to. This doesn't mean you need to, medicine doesn't need to mean that you ingest it or make something with it.
Tara Ruth:
Absolutely. It can also help us get creative when we think about what other plants or mushrooms could I use in a similar way. Maybe turkey tail, a more abundant mushroom.
John Gallagher:
Reishi.
Tara Ruth:
Exactly.
John Gallagher:
And there's a lot to learn. And if you are wondering and have questions, remember as a HerbMentor member, you can go to the forum, we have a community, ask questions, start up conversations. What are you thinking about, even about certain mushrooms or herbs that you might want to use, use that space.
Tara Ruth:
I love the forum. Just to say.
John Gallagher:
Me too. Me too. It's a wonderful place. It's a community. It's been there, even before Facebook it was there, still there. Great people.
Tara Ruth:
Are you saying you're the original Mark Zuckerberg?
John Gallagher:
Yes, exactly. And you should see my mansion. Right. So also Tara, we have another great resource on HerbMentor for learning about wildcrafting. You want to talk a little about that?
Tara Ruth:
Yeah, absolutely. We have Wildcrafters Toolkit, which is a simple course with just easy steps and tips and tricks by Rosalee de la Foret & Emily Han on how to be an ethical wildcrafter. So you'll learn wildcrafting principles, you'll learn a little bit of plant id, what tools you need, and then how to harvest different plant parts and how to process those plants. It really gives you a great overview and compliments this conversation with Nathan.
John Gallagher:
There's just a bunch of little five, 10 minute videos you go through and it doesn't take much time at all to go through and you're going to learn so much. And that goes with their book Wild Remedies, which also is great for wildcrafting and keeping nature and sustainability in mind. And if you're not a HerbMentor member, you could go to, actually this podcast is HerbMentor Radio, go herbmentorradio.com. And not only can you subscribe on your podcast apps there, but you can also get a listener discount on HerbMentor. So you can check it out there if you want to see what it is, what we're talking about and you would like to join us at the member discount.
Tara Ruth:
Do it.
John Gallagher:
Do it too.
Tara Ruth:
I'll be there in the forum too, by the way. I ask questions and I get to learn from so many HerbMentor members and get inspired by different people's recipe ideas and the questions they ask. It's one of my favorite resources. So highly recommend.
John Gallagher:
Thank you. And all right, I think we should get back to this incredible conversation with Nathan, right?
Tara Ruth:
Yeah, let's do it. This also makes me think about, Nathan, reciprocity, which I know you highlight in your work. And I'm just wondering, can you talk about why reciprocity is so important with the herbal world, mushroom harvesting world and beyond?
Nathan Wright:
Sure, sure. There's a saying that we have, if you don't use the medicines, they'll leave. As an Anishinabek teaching, you could first hear that, but until you experience it you really have no understanding of what that really means. I've come to learn, you're talking to somebody that used to be really careful about every place I walked when I was in nature. I didn't want to damage any of the plants, literally tiptoeing through the field or not wanting to cut any trees whatsoever because I love them. And I've evolved since that because I have a better understanding of nature and how it works. And I've seen the effects personally, not out of a book or anything like that or out of a video. I've actually seen it for myself. And one thing I have seen for sure is that we do stimulate the roots when we're out there walking around.
The plant seems to send a message to the plants around it saying, hey, there's someone walking around here, a couple of my roots were broken, we need to start growing more. I've seen that certainly with smaller trees. Some of the smaller trees that we harvest sustainably, like the tamarack tree, which grows from a mother tree. Onto its long roots up come the smaller shoots. And those shoots are what we harvest from. Usually there's two of them, they're like dual. They're right next to each other and we'll cut one of them and it helps that one grow and then it helps other ones shoot up too. It's amazing. I have an area that I've done that for years and I actually, there's more there now than there was before I started, which is really bizarre. But I think reciprocity, now, that's where this comes in.
What am I giving back when I go out there and wild harvest? What am I doing for Mother Nature? What am I doing in exchange? So one of the things Anishinabek do and other indigenous nations, is that they put their tobacco down and that's one of those reciprocities. And I don't know the specific reason of how tobacco might help the plant. I'm sure there is. Maybe it helps protect it from bugs or insects. I don't know. I don't know, that teaching is maybe lost, but it is something that we do to show our respect. We do a little prayer and we state our intentions and we show our respect. But for me, I started to, in my prayers I talked about maybe protecting the plant and helping the plant survive. And one day I realized, what am I doing? What am I doing to actually make that happen?
And I realized I wasn't really doing anything other than just telling that, saying that prayer to the plant that I was harvesting, but I wasn't really doing anything. So this is all around the time when the Standing Rock stuff happened and a big environmental thing that happened with indigenous nations protecting their water. I went out there, I was a part of that, I was there when the dog attacks happened. I came back to Michigan realizing that we have a pipeline here as well. And started to take activism on that. That was a couple years ago, and now that's grown into what we're doing now, which is the Northwood Nature Fest, which is a yearly event where it's centered around herbalism, but we also have a bit of environmentalism in there. And then we also have in their indigenous teachings.
And it's something that we do up in Northern Michigan yearly in Indian River. And that's my contribution, that's my reciprocity back to nature. And I'd love to see more of our herbalists start, including, I know many of them include sustainability, but also start including a bit about environmentalism as well. Because for us to go out and forage, we need to protect our lands and waters and in order for us to be able to do what we do, so we have to participate in some way or some form to make that happen.
John Gallagher:
That is interesting, because yeah, on one hand people get interested in herbs and that connects them to the environment. And then also at the same time, you have to be aware of your sustainability and your harvesting and you want to teach people, but then you have to also make sure that they understand that. There's a lot to it, right? But when people get it, I think that it's very, very powerful form of activism. Me personally, education and connection to nature was, and sharing hers was also my form of environmental activism, because me personally, I wasn't very good at the political side of it or the policy side of it, whereas I did have a gift for sharing and teaching others. So that makes a lot of sense. Where can people find out about this event that you're doing? That sounds really, really cool.
Nathan Wright:
Well, you could go to the website MackinawOde, which is under construction right now, but we have a bunch of filler information in there. But disregard that. You'll be able to see the Northwoods Nature Fest. It's mackinawode.com. And we had Matthew Woods the first year at Lisa Rose. We had a bunch of indigenous herbalists, and then next year we got jim mcdonald's coming and Matthew's coming again. And we have a bunch of other people that are, Lisa's coming in. Just about everyone that went there said, used the word amazing to describe it. It wasn't huge because we didn't really promote it that well, but it was a beautiful event up here in Northern Michigan. We're surrounded by some incredible forest, some incredible water.
It's just the most awesome place in my opinion for herbalists to come and not only meet up with each other, but also to educate the general public about the beautiful plants and herbs and mushrooms that are around. And then hopefully make them allies for us to help protect the environment. So when there's environmental issues that come up in the area, they'll say, well, hey, that's in that area where that plant grows that I love. They can't do that. We're going to sign this or we're going to do what we can to help out.
John Gallagher:
I always said too about the reciprocity being like, okay, yes, I can do something mindful, like leave tobacco or a form of prayer for somebody. It might be something different. But also reciprocity is doing something too. It's helping people connect to the plants, because a lot of people who might hear about the chaga, whatever cool beverages out there, don't know these things.
Nathan Wright:
No. And that's why it's important that they find places to purchase from that do it sustainable. And there's a lot of greenwashing out there as we know. There's a lot of people doing stuff sustainably, and they're not really, and they're relying heavily upon companies like us that are actually doing it sustainable. We're small scale, and that's in part why we can do it sustainably. If we were a huge company, I don't know if that's even possible if we're not growing it. If we're growing it, of course it is. But when you're talking about wild foraged stuff like chaga, it's just good that we have an organization like United Plant Savers.
John Gallagher:
Yes, amen.
Nathan Wright:
Because no one's really doing that and I really appreciate what United Plant Savers does. I'm a big advocate for them. But you also had me thinking about this other thing that I noticed when I was out there in the last couple days of wild foraging, is the resilience of some of our plants and medicines. I could give you an example. So Anishinabek, we have these rice beds that have grown for years that we likely planted some of those, I'm not saying all of them, but we likely planted some of those. And they have survived all these years. Wild rice manoomin is what we call it. It was one of the reasons why we traveled here from St. Lawrence Seaway to the Great Lakes, was to find the food that grows on water. And that's what we found.
And that wild rice was one of our staples, one of the main dishes that we had that helped us survive, had a lot of protein, a lot of good nutrients in it that helped us. And so those rice beds have been resilient. Some of the gardens that we planted have been also resilient. They've continued to grow where we planted them. Oftentimes if I'm looking for a certain medicine, I'll go to an area that I know there used to be an Indian village, and I'll find them there to my amazement. And they're in incredible condition. And it's almost like the moment you see them and they see you, it's almost like they're like, where have you been?
Someone was telling me a story about ginseng, of how ginseng, they planted some seeds of ginseng. And the moment those seeds started popping up out of the ground or the plants started coming up out of the ground, there was other ginseng there. And that other ginseng that was older started growing. So there was these big plants already growing the next year next to these little baby seeds that were just planted. How is that so? It was almost as if that ginseng needed to be reawoken, reawoke to say, hey, we're still here. So there's some really fascinating things about plants that we have yet to understand. And when we continue to talk about our resilience, I've seen in my latest adventures, some gigantic cedar trees. One of the largest I've ever seen, probably had a four-foot circumference around it.
I'm six foot four and I put my arms around it, and it was a little bit more than halfway. So my arm spread is pretty wide. It might even be larger than four feet. But anyways, they were hanging. I noticed how all cedars kind of, when they grow, they kind of grow with a curb and they were hanging off the side of the shore and they were huge. And I just couldn't help but to think that at one point in time this river was loaded with those gigantic cedars. And it must've been so bad that when the loggers were happening, because they logged all of Michigan, when the loggers were here and they were throwing in these big logs, they must've had to cut some of these cedars off because they were probably blocking the water flow. These things are gigantic. And so I continued my journey back and I found some really large cedar trees growing out of a piece of wood.
And it really made me fascinated, like, what is happening here? What is going on? And I started to realize this was a large cedar tree that fell over and is now buried in the ground partially. And there's these bigger cedar trees that are growing out of it. And I'm trying to gauge how old are these? Certainly pre-contact, certainly at least 300, 400 years old. I was just amazed at that resilience that trees and plants have. And there's a story with Marie Tribe, the Sault Ste. Marie Tribe of Chippewa Indians, where back in the 1800s there was a tree, it was a mountain-ash tree, and it fell over the same way that I've seen the cedar with its branches growing out of it that have now become their own trees. And the story was that the Anishinabek, when they would travel, the first thing they would do is go to this tree and make an offering.
One observer who was European mentioned it was some sort of a twig. I don't know if they were offering a herb or plant or maybe even tobacco itself, I don't know. But they were doing that. And I think one of the reasons why they were doing it is because they were admiring the resilience of that mountain-ash tree, because it had fell over, but it continued to survive. And I think the Anishinabek were really intrigued by that, because in many ways they have fallen over many times and have continued to rise up and continued to go. Shortly after someone had wrote about this in a book, I guess the tree was completely removed because there was a Fort Brady they were putting in there, and so they removed that tree.
My dad went to where it was growing years later, and he found what he believed was a young version of that tree and replanted that Fort Brady in Sault Ste. Marie as kind of a sign of our resilience as Anishinabek people. But I think that resilience definitely ties in with our herbs and plants and medicines.
John Gallagher:
And everyone who is inspired by and working with plants in themselves can become, be part of that environmental activism. That's what you're doing, having that mindset. I was wondering, Nathan, if you could share a little bit about your work as an indigenous and environmental activist and water protector, to go a little bit more into that because that's, I don't know, it just seems to like where we'd be going. You're talking about resilience, we're talking about sustainability, and I just love just the way you're going about this is so inspiring and I think there's so much to learn just from how you go about working with herbs that we can apply to our own lives.
Nathan Wright:
Well, thank you. It's a journey. And to be honest with you, in some ways I think I was led by Mother Nature itself. I think the more that I went out into the wild, the more it's changed me and it's made me a better person. And it made me realize things that needed to be realized. Sometimes I come out of the woods with a thought or idea that came to me in the woods. I don't know where, it just came to me. And so I have a deep connection with Mother Earth may be very similar to my ancestors who'd lived in Mother Nature all the time. So the more I go out there, the more I change. To be honest with you, right before this podcast, I really was in a very introverted mood. And that's what happens usually when I go out in the woods for three, four days, I'm just like, I have to take time to adjust to being around people.
And I have to think about what I've learned because it's not the immediate thought. There's a subconscious thought of what I learned. These subconscious thoughts that I had led me to, like I said, doing the thing with Standing Rock and then coming back here and then being concerned about the environment here. Because how can I be true to the work that I love when I'm not really doing what it takes for the work that I love to exist? I have to do something more than watch or turn a blind eye, which is what I think a lot of us end up doing. If anything, just to make someone realize that we need to, as herbalist we need to start doing things in our area to help protect our environment, whatever that may be. Everyone's got a different thing that they're interested in.
It might be an area that you foraged that was clear cut and you're upset about that because now all the things that you foraged are gone. Well, what can you do? Well, you could start communicating with your local here in Michigan as Department of Natural Resources, and you could start communicating with them. Well, hey, how are these decisions made? Or can I be alerted when this happens? Or how come you guys aren't doing selective harvesting, which is better for the environment? You could start, you'd be amazed at some of the feedback you'll get. There is something you could do about it, but you have to do something. You have to start somewhere.
John Gallagher:
That is exactly it.
Nathan Wright:
And so that's what led me to all these things. And yes, I did like the activism, the shutdown line five. I even met President Biden and told him to shut down Line Five. Actually it looked like he mouthed it with us. That's the extent we took that. We were going to places to raise awareness about environmental issues, specifically Line Five. We got to a point where we had 500 people two, three years ago that went to Mackinaw City that were all activists. And Winona LaDuke was one of those people that attended that. And from there, I think after COVID happened, people have changed. People are in a little bit different state of mind. And so that's why I started the Northwoods Nature Fest, which was the first one was this year.
I wanted to kind of go one-on-one with people, and I wanted to share more of my love for herbalism and my concerns for the environment. And that was the perfect way to do it, was through an herbalism based event that has environmentalism as well as indigenous teachings. All the things that I love and appreciate rolled into one.
John Gallagher:
So beautiful.
Nathan Wright:
The first year we did it was perfect, and everyone, I ran it by it, IHS really loved the idea and I would really appreciate if other events out there do the same thing. Environmentalism isn't a bad word.
John Gallagher:
No, I know.
Nathan Wright:
It's part of who we are to be honest with you, because-
John Gallagher:
This is our life support system folks.
Nathan Wright:
Exactly.
We're not doing enough. We're not doing enough. And so that's why I appreciate you guys giving me the opportunity to talk about it. That's why I think it's important. I'm not trying to preach to anyone. I'm just trying to say, hey, there's something going on here and we all need to join in to help out with this because things are getting pretty bad.
John Gallagher:
Well, you're talking to the right people. This is why we do it too.
Tara Ruth:
I love too what you said, Nathan, about being an ally to the plants and to nature, which we are a part of, but I think so often we get excited about the plant allies like, oh, what plant ally do I want to work with and how can we be in reciprocity and repay that and be allies to the plants that we work with? I think it's so beautiful that you're bringing in these very concrete ways of doing that, and I'm really grateful for the work that you're doing.
Nathan Wright:
Well, thanks. And when I hear that, to be honest with you, it always surprises me because I don't know what I'm doing that's different. But I hear a lot that people are saying that. You don't know who you are, you don't know what you're doing or what people appreciate, especially being indigenous into herbalism. There is a different thought process. And then I'll give you an example. I hear a lot of people that are into nature say that I have the right to do this. I have a right to do that. And I look at them and I say, well, your thought is different from mine. My thought is, I have a responsibility to protect Mother Earth. I have a responsibility to make sure that these natural areas are there for the next seven generations, not only for indigenous people, but for everyone. How are we going to reach that point when we're not heading in that direction right now?
John Gallagher:
I think really the goal comes down to us as herbalist, like a primary view, going about it with the look at ourselves as caretakers I think first and foremost, right?
Nathan Wright:
I would have to agree. We're probably the most connected ones, but for those that do a lot of the wild foraging, we are very connected to nature and have a great understanding of it. And yet here we are, we're not really asked, no one's talked to me recently to say, hey, what's your thoughts on this? Or what's your thoughts on that? There's no sort of a connection that we have to different dates. To be honest with you, most of the stuff that happens out in the forest right now, they say they call it forest management, but it's really a lumbering operation. And I can't blame the people that are out there that are accepting these jobs, because they're trying to make a living. But I think the states can certainly do a better job of it. They're trying to create jobs. So a lot of that is just basically so they could say, we have these jobs that we created by allowing people to go in the forest and clear cut, but we're not even thinking about the tourism.
We're not even thinking about the value of all the mushrooms that are in there and all the herbs and plants that are in there that people have went in there to harvest. We're not thinking of things that are not even measurable by money. The spiritual aspect of going into a forest, the church like feeling that some people get when they go in because they consider that to be their church. We're not thinking about those things. There's a lot of value that the state doesn't even think about. I personally have witnessed selective harvesting being healthy, or that's where they cut some trees, but not all, being healthy. But where clear cuts are basically like a new bomb of the forest and they never go back. They never plant the seeds for the understory.
And this was also a recent thought I had when I was out there, was that Mother Earth has created the perfect recipe and formula for everything. And what happened is that we as humans challenged that and wanted to control Mother Earth. And so we whipped it around, we dug, we did this, we changed rivers and how they flow and all this other stuff. And now we're dealing with an environmental crisis with everything that's happening, global warming, all these things. And had we just left it, or at least parts of it, with those formulas, and we were able to go back to them and look at it and say, well, why is this particular forest not being affected by any of the insects that are evading the trees or any of the diseases that are happening to these plants and herbs? What is going on here? Why is this working?
And the reason probably is because Mother Earth figured out a recipe for that forest to survive. And had we left all those plants, had we replanted those seeds after we did those clear cuts, then maybe we would have more healthy forest and better lives because those plants and herbs in the soil, all of that have an effect on us, the clean water, all of that, and they could nourish us and make us into healthier, better people. So that was the last thought when I was out there about the recipes that Mother Earth had created, that we need to somehow find what those recipes were. With this combination of plants, find out why these chemicals work to prevent invasive species from going in. And if you're not familiar with what I'm talking about, if you go to some old growth forest like up in Temagami, you'll find that there's no invasive species that are able to enter it for some reason. Or if they do, they don't last long.
And I don't think that's ever been studied before. And these are the types of things. Mother Nature has an answer for every single problem that we have in this world. And that is something my indigenous mentors always taught to me. And I never really fully understood what that meant. I am starting to though. And when it says everything, that they could do everything in this world that the world needs. I believe it.
Tara Ruth:
Nathan, hearing you talk about planting seeds too, it's making me think about how this conversation in itself is a seed and what will grow from this, just from people getting to hear you and learn from you in this conversation and also in your classes and all the other work you're doing. I'm just so grateful.
John Gallagher:
It's such an honor to have you here and sharing with us. We don't take it lightly. It's a big deal for us, so appreciate it.
Nathan Wright:
Well, thanks. I don't know, like I said, I started talking about this a couple years ago and I started noticing how people really appreciated it. And it always blows my mind when people react the way you're reacting, because I'm like, oh, okay, I didn't know, but I've been doing a lot of this on my own for some time. And when I started sharing what I was doing and some of my experiences, people really seemed to appreciate it. Well thanks.
John Gallagher:
We're hearing these amazing words from someone who is out there and knows the land and knows exact trees and is connected to place, and you're rooted in that. So hearing what you're saying, it just means so much, because you know that yeah, this is what we got to listen to. This is a great. I have so many thoughts as we're going along, but I'm like, no, I'm just going to listen to you talk because this is amazing.
Nathan Wright:
Well, I appreciate that. I wanted to share too, we were talking about connection too. Okay, so this part you guys could either leave in or leave out. I'm going to speak about two parts. One is this first part is about, so remind me on the second part because I might forget. The second part is going to be about the universal connection. That's going to be the second part. I might forget that. If I forget it, remind me and we can talk about it.
Tara Ruth:
I'm writing it down. I'm writing the second part.
John Gallagher:
I'm leaving it in.
Tara Ruth:
Universal connection.
Nathan Wright:
Okay. That's fine. Whatever. I've been on a weird journey the last two weeks that I don't quite understand, yet I do. So first off, I want to mention that when I go to a place that I haven't harvested in years, it's like a reunion. I'm really happy to see the plants and the plants and trees are really happy to see me. I believe that trees can communicate with you mainly by popping. They make a pop sound when you walk by them. Some people could say that's just the wind. Okay, well, you could believe that. But I believe differently. I believe that trees try to talk to me, especially when it's done at two or three times. I'll walk out over that tree. I would say nine times out of 10 I'll find a plant herb or mushroom that I might've not even been looking for, but I didn't know was right there. And I get really excited. And it was almost as if the tree was saying, hey, come by me. Check out what I got over here. So that's one thing.
Whenever I go to an area I haven't been into, each year I always come there and I kind of tell them I'm happy to see them. I'm glad to be back here. I'm sorry that I took so long to return. I want to harvest some more medicines. I hope you don't mind. And I've watched forests that were clear cut and how they change over the years. There's different plants that come in. St. John's wort is probably one of the first plants you see come in, at least in this area. And then you start to see yarrow. Yarrow starts to pop in, and then yarrow starts to leave. And now you're starting to see some goldenrod pop in. So this one particular spot, I've kind of witnessed that happening. There's also some fireweed, it's like a mini fireweed, which I didn't even know there was such a thing that's starting to grow in this spot.
But in that same spot, there is this eagle nest. And every time I go there, I'll look around that, because for us as Anishinabek indigenous people, we're the only ones that can have eagle feathers. And it's just because of our spirituality and our traditions, that's respected by the United States. I will usually casually walk around the nest just to see if I find one, and I've been doing that for years, never found one. And this particular day that I went out there just a few days ago, I felt there was going to be something different. And I remember looking right down, I wasn't recording, because normally I record my stuff. I'm going to start a regular show here shortly. I'm actually working with the editor right now about my foraging adventures. I've seen it and I'm like, I think I know what that is.
Ran back and got my camera, recorded what I had done, reenacted that part. But then the part where I picked it up and everything, that's all genuine feeling. And I was astounded and I was thankful, because that's a huge thing. We consider that being gifted. At that point I was being gifted an eagle feather, a Miigwan, we call it a Miigwan. I was being gifted that for some reason. And I presume it had something to do with my work that I've been doing, and I've never, I can't think of recent memory when I found a Miigwan out in the wild like I did. I was just almost a little speechless, but at the same time I understood. It's weird when you have two different thoughts going through your head like, I don't know what to say, but I understand this. I would say from that point on, I went into what I call a universal connection.
And a universal connection, this is something I mentioned this online, and then someone started telling me, you're connected to the universe of these things that are happening. It's where you walk through a room and a cup falls and you grab it before it hits the floor. You spin around, you grab the plate or the pan that you're cooking food, and then you flip it over on the perfect time. You go grab something over here and spin around and then take care of this. It's like where everything that you're doing is perfect timing. It's for a specific reason, and it's working. You're not making any mistakes because you're allowing yourself to flow in that energy, that universal energy that we all strive to connect to, but don't ever do. But when you do it, you totally understand it and it really changes your life.
And I've been having, I think this has been going on ever since I found that Miigwan, I've been just doing all these things right. And even today I did not want to do this podcast. I was in such an introverted mode. And now that I'm doing it, I'm kind of like, okay, I'm glad I did this now.
John Gallagher:
Maybe there's another podcast I can do.
Nathan Wright:
I didn't know what we were going to talk about. I knew what was fresh on my mind, but I didn't know what we were going to talk about. And I always say to people, some of the greatest things are done that way when you have no clue what you're going to talk about and then you talk and then you end up talking about some great stuff.
John Gallagher:
Absolutely.
Nathan Wright:
But does that make the universal thing, like I said, if you want to leave that part in there, if not, no problem. I don't know how weird it sounds, because until you experience it.
John Gallagher:
Oh well, Nathan, everyone including us and everyone listening, we're all weird.
Nathan Wright:
Okay. I hope all of you can be weird with me and experience that universal connection, because you'll know when it's happening. It's when everything's going right.
John Gallagher:
Absolutely.
Tara Ruth:
In flow state.
John Gallagher:
Everything you're saying, everything you're doing perfect timing. You come out of the bush and it starts raining. It's almost like you're connected to everything and you've fully accepted that you are a part of mother, it's where nature comes out of the woods for you, and it's around you all the time. And I've never experienced that. I've never experienced that till just recently. And I hope it continues. And whatever I'm doing, I'm going to continue to do it because it seems to be working. Not only is it helping me with the work that I do with herbalism, but it's also helping me out in my everyday life.
Thank you. Speaking of which, if folks want to learn more about your work, it's at herballodge.com. Herballodge.com. What will folks find there?
Nathan Wright:
Well, on our site, we've been in business for 14 years, so we have a pain relief salve, a Minagin, which is a means to rub on. An Anishinabek, it's good for muscle pain, joint pain, arthritis. Then we have another one that's, Minagin Nerve, is for nerve damage, carpal tunnel, surgery operations, fibromyalgia, anything to do with tingling underneath the skin. And both of them use balsam popular, which is a tree bud we wild harvest in the wintertime. And yes, I do wild harvest all year round, including the wintertime. And then we have the Nojmuk-Dry Skin, which is good for cracked hands, cracked feet, that has 17 different herbs in it.
And we have chaga mushroom tea. I just harvested. That batch I'm talking about right now is still drying. So that's happening right now as far as we have a fresh supply of it. And then the other is a nerve tea, which is good for people with anxiety and nerve damage. We have a bunch planned for the next year that we're going to slowly start introducing. The thing is we don't like to introduce anything until we can verify after a year or two that we can sustainably harvest it. If we can't sustainably harvest it, we won't produce it. That's our strict guidelines that we go to nowadays. We are not about making a buck, we're about making a living in a very sustainable way and protecting our environment and educating the public about how they too can protect our environment as well.
John Gallagher:
And I suggest everyone go to herballodge.com because if you click on these various products that Nathan's talking about, you're going to see what's in them, you're going to learn about those herbs. Like, what is he using for this nerve tea and what is its support? And I just suggest that in general, I remember a mentor telling me if you see a herbal product somewhere, pick it up, look at the ingredients. It's another way to learn. But there's a lot of great information on the Herbal Lodge site, so please go check that out.
Nathan Wright:
Well, thank you. And for your listeners, I will provide a coupon code, I'll call it L Herbs 10, L Herbs 10, and that will give them a 10% discount.
John Gallagher:
If you look at the podcast description, wherever you're listening, we'll have it there and put the actual expiration date, and I'll be there. So check the description of the podcast out folks, and you'll see a link to herballodge.com and you'll see the coupon code and when it expires.
Tara Ruth:
Thank you so much, Nathan.
John Gallagher:
Oh my gosh. Thank you, Nathan. This has been incredible. What a great afternoon. I love this.
Nathan Wright:
Well, thank you very much for having me. It's an honor to be here, and I really appreciate everything that you guys are doing, and you guys have such great radio voices that it was a pleasure to hear you guys speak as well.
John Gallagher:
Yes, thank you. Well, Tara, that was probably one of the most, I don't know, I'm just in reverence right now. There was so much in this conversation. It was one of those conversations where, so often we have questions in front of us, what we may ask one after the other or in different orders when we have a guest on. And in this interview I think we asked one of the questions that we started with, and it just took its own life from there. We're just like, well, this is going to just be its own amazing journey.
Tara Ruth:
Exactly. Nathan was talking about flow state, and I totally felt that in the listening and chatting with him. And after attending his mushroom class at the International Herb Symposium, I was like, I definitely want to talk with you on HerbMentor Radio and get our listeners to get to hear from Nathan.
John Gallagher:
It was 100% organic conversation.
Tara Ruth:
Yeah, for sure. Certified.
John Gallagher:
It is certified. As we often like to do at HerbMentor Radio, I'm going to hand it off to Tara, who is going to share the latest herb note with us.
Tara Ruth:
Absolutely. I'm super excited for y'all to get to hear this next herb note. So without further ado, let's do it.
John Gallagher:
See you later.
Tara Ruth:
Welcome to Herb Notes. I'm Tara Ruth with LearningHerbs. Most people are familiar with aloe vera as an undemanding house plant that can be called upon in times of sunburn. And while it is true that the inner fillet of aloe is one of our go-to plant allies for mild sunburns, this plant also offers so many more healing gifts. So let's dive into three key health benefits of aloe. One, aloe vera's inner fillet can soothe inflamed mucus membranes. The mucilaginous gel of aloe inner fillet is cooling and moistening and can soothe irritated tissues in both the digestive and respiratory tract. I often call an aloe soothing gel for acid reflux, sore throat and dry cough. Two, aloe vera's inner fillet is an immunomodulator. This means that aloe gel can potentially help bring greater balance to the immune system when it's over or underactive. Plus the fresh gel, and fresh is the key here, also demonstrates some antibacterial and antifungal activity.
Three, aloe vera's inner fillet can soothe skin inflammation, whether it's from a mild sunburn, acne, or eczema. Topical aloe gel has an affinity for soothing minor, dry, red, inflamed skin, potentially reducing pain and promoting tissue repair. If applying to a sunburn, the aloe tends to work most effectively when applied immediately after the burn occurs. And when tending cuts or broken skin, it's important to only use the fresh aloe gel because the store-bought preparations can encourage staphylococcus bacteria. So to recap. Here are three ways I like to work with the inner fillet of aloe. One, I ingest aloe gel to soothe my mucus membranes in my GI and respiratory tracts. Two, I work with aloe gel as an immunomodulator to help balance my immune system. Three, I apply aloe gel topically to mild sunburns eczema and other inflamed skin issues to soothe my skin and promote tissue repair.
And right now you might be wondering why I keep saying the inner fillet of aloe. That's because the inner fillet and the outer leaf of aloe have super different properties. While the inner fillet has a mild taste and is soothing and hydrating for the body, the outer leaf is super bitter and is an incredibly strong laxative that can have some undesired effects. So that's why we're sticking with the gentle soothing aloe inner fillet in this herb note. And if you want to learn more about aloe benefits, you can visit herbnotes.cards to grab a free deck of our top 12 herb notes. You'll learn all about common herbs like aloe, garlic, echinacea, cinnamon, and more. This has been Herb Notes, with me Tara Ruth. Catch you next time.
John Gallagher:
HerbMentor Radio and Herb Notes are 100% sustainably wildcrafted podcasts, written, performed, and produced by Tara Ruth and me, John Gallagher. Sound Engineering by Zach Frank. Visit herbmentorradio.com to subscribe on your favorite podcast app and to find out how you can be part of HerbMentor, which is a website that you must see to believe. HerbMentor Radio is a production of learningherbs.com LLC. All rights reserved. Thank you very, very, very much for listening.
