Fatima Matar: Once you know what a milkweed looks like, you'll automatically just see it everywhere you go. My niece and nephews are just like, "Hey, look, that's milkweed." And we're driving by on the highway and they'll just point it out and they're about 10, 11, so they know what it looks like now.
John Gallagher: You are listening to HerbMentor Radio by Learning Herbs. I'm John Gallagher.
Tara Ruth: And I'm Tara Ruth. Today we're chatting with Fatima Matar and Nada Beydoun. Fatima is a passionate gardener supporting the work of growing and bringing awareness to milkweed and monarch butterflies since 2019. She's based in Ottawa, Canada and outside of driving around with a backseat filled with milkweed plants, you can find her doing photography as a freelance photographer. Follow her and her monarch journey and planting on Instagram @naturewithfatimam. And then Nada is a registered herbalist from Halifax, Nova Scotia with a bachelor's in science in microbiology and immunology, and a master's in applied human nutrition. Her interests include SWANA region herbal medicine, and she has a community work background in refugee settlement and empowerment. You can follow her plant journey on Instagram @beybotany.
John Gallagher: Well, welcome Fatima and Nada to HerbMentor Radio. It's awesome to have you both with us today.
Nada Beydoun: Thank you. It's great to be here.
John Gallagher: And you're both cousins and have known each other your whole life. Wow.
Tara Ruth: Oh my gosh. Is this our first time having cousins on the podcast?
John Gallagher: Yes.
Nada Beydoun: Oh my God, yes. We're a first.
Tara Ruth: Well done.
Nada Beydoun: Absolutely. It's so great having both of you with us.
Tara Ruth: Nada, I first reached out to you about having you on HerbMentor Radio, and then you suggested bringing your cousin onto to talk about your work together growing milkweed and building awareness about monarch butterflies. And I totally loved this idea, especially since we're in spring and I just wanted to know, can you talk a little bit about what is milkweed and its relationship with monarch butterflies?
Fatima Matar: Milkweed is a perennial plant that belongs to the Asclepias family. There are over 100 species in North America. Milkweed plants are important of the survival for monarch butterflies. It is the host plant and the only source of food for monarch caterpillars, and they provide a critical habitat for female monarchs to lay their eggs. Each adult lives about two to six weeks except for the migrating generation, which lives up to seven months throughout the fall and winter.
Nada Beydoun: Yeah. And the adult monarchs also really depend on these nectar producing flowering plants during the whole spring and summer breeding season. So it helps with reproduction and it also fuels their migration to Mexico and California during the fall. And so it's so important for monarch conservation to have all of these flowering plants and the milkweeds. And it's also so important for the pollinators as well as the butterflies, the bees, the birds, the moths, all of them to have these milkweed plants around. And also there's so many medicinal properties as well to milkweed for humans.
Tara Ruth: Can you talk a little bit about that, about those medicinal properties? I first learned about milkweed because I was at herb school and I smelled a waft of the scent of the flowers from 10 feet away. I was like, what is this intoxicating smell? And I followed my nose and I found this beautiful cluster of flowers that were just covered in pollinators and I was like, this plant must be super special.
Nada Beydoun: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can definitely relate with just coming across these fields of milkweed and just how beautiful smelling they are and just like it's such a magical space as well, just being able to come across all of these milkweed. I personally have not worked with milkweed medicinally, but I do know it has a plethora of medicinal benefits and actions. So the milkweed that is worked with is the butterfly weed, also called pleurisy root. The Latin name is asclepias tuberosa, and usually the herb is taken as a tea infusion or a tincture. It's one of the herbs I'd say that has come up a lot in the last few years. It's relevant to discussions around supporting people with COVID symptoms according to a lot of herbalist.
Tara Ruth: Oh, wow.
Nada Beydoun: Yeah, it's got some really great actions as an anti-inflammatory, supporting the linings of the lungs, and supportive of these pulmonary conditions like bronchitis and pneumonia, and it's a really strong diaphoretic so it increases dilation and perspiration. Especially where there's a cough concerned it's a really great expectorant, especially when there's any sharp pains associated with that cough. And usually it's indicated when there's heat and a lot of dryness in the chest and it provides that moistening action and it has that strong affinity for improving fluid circulation and in lymphatic drainage. Yeah, it's a really great herb to use medicinally.
John Gallagher: How would you know to take the preparation of it or prepare milkweed?
Nada Beydoun: I mean, it's usually a dried root. I feel like usually it's like a teaspoon normally for these roots, you don't want to want to go more than that for this one because in high doses it can be toxic. So as an infusion the dried root putting it in boiled water. It can also be taken as a cold infusion, I know that's been recorded as a tea up to three times a day.
Tara Ruth: Hey, y'all I'm just hopping on to add that if someone's working with milkweed, it's very important to make sure that they're working with the correct species. There are many species of milkweed, and while some are edible and medicinal, there are also some species that are toxic. So as always, it's super, super, super important to correctly ID plants and know exactly what plant you're working with. The species we're talking about here is Asclepias tuberosa, otherwise known pleurisy root. Like Nada was saying, the dosage for a tea of pleurisy root is one half to one teaspoon of dried herb infused in water. And it's important to note that this plant does increase the risk of cardiac glycoside toxicity if taken with drugs or herbs that contain those constituents. Now, I say all of this for the sake of transparency, but in just a second we're going to talk about whether someone should even harvest milkweed considering it's such a vital plant for endangered monarch butterflies. So let's dive back in, I guess as you're talking about this, and we're also presenting the pollinators and how important this plant is to monarch butterflies and more pollinators, I'm kind of struck with this tension of like, wow, this sounds like such a cool plant to work with, but also it's super important to our pollinator friends. So what do you think about that balance of getting excited about this plant or its medicinal gifts, but also being a steward of the plant and wanting to make sure that we aren't getting overexcited and over harvesting? How do you strike that balance with milkweed and what are your recommendations around that?
Nada Beydoun: Yeah, absolutely. I mean there's definitely that issue with butterfly weed being over harvested in the wild, and it has a lot of conservation issues as well in the wild so I would not recommend harvesting in the wild if that can be avoided. I think it would be best to-
John Gallagher: Really?
Nada Beydoun: Yeah, I think it would be best to plant it in the garden at home in large numbers and to instead harvest the roots from some of the plants, but make sure there's enough planted in the ground for the monarchs to be able to make use of. It is a really great herb for respiratory issues, but I think there can be some substitutes. Some of those substitutes can be like lobelia, can be marshmallow root, hyssop is a good one as well for the coughs. Wild cherry bark is another one and elecampane. I mean, I think there's a lot of these really great herbal substitutes to use. And also right now pleurisy root is actually listed as an at-risk herb as part of the United Plant Savers, which is an organization advocating for the preservation of the North American medicinal herbs. So I think it's very vital to be protecting this herb in nature and to rethink wild harvesting.
John Gallagher: That's interesting because being from the East Coast, I remember in New Jersey milkweed being a common just weed out in fields and there was lots of it. So is it more habitat destruction, more development going in so it's taking these fields? Because that's where I mostly remember seeing it as a pretty common plant, but you're saying that a lot of it's threatened now.
Nada Beydoun: Yeah, a lot of it has been threatened. There's a lot of conservation issues with milkweed and at least where I live and where Fatima lives in Ottawa. I live in Halifax and milkweed is listed as a noxious herb, so the city has a very controlled removal of milkweeds. So it's both on the city and in farmlands there's that issue.
John Gallagher: Noxious for who? Cattle or something?
Nada Beydoun: I mean, I don't know. I guess it is for cattle and just seen as an invasive so they try to-
John Gallagher: Oh, it's a threat to the green lawns?
Nada Beydoun: Exactly right.
John Gallagher: Oh, I see.
Nada Beydoun: And I remember when me and Fatima we were together, we were at a Starbucks drive-through and there was that driveway right next there's this green patch, and there you could see that the milkweed was just cut down. You can still recognize it as a milkweed plant, but they just cut down the stems and it's just like, well, that would be a great location for butterflies to kind of visit Starbucks and get their own food as well. But yeah, the city really is trying to remove as much milkweed as they can in these spaces.
John Gallagher: Fatima, is there awareness campaigns around this? And as far as towns or places maybe planting butterfly gardens or schools maybe because children of course, I remember being enchanted by butterflies when I was a kid. Have you been involved with any work in that or in your awareness?
Fatima Matar: So me personally, I am a part of Facebook groups here in Ottawa, but I haven't really been a part of any community gardens here in Ottawa but there are a lot. I know that schools are trying to make different pollinator gardens for the pollinators, but I don't think milkweed is one of those plants that they're considering adding because of the whole idea of it being "toxic." So they're leaving out milkweed, but of course it's very important for the monarchs and they are becoming extinct so I encourage everyone to keep planting those milkweeds no matter what because monarchs need it. And especially the females, they need it to lay their eggs, otherwise they won't keep producing that lifecycle.
John Gallagher: Can people take a part of their yard or their garden? Is it kind of a plant that you might want to plant around periphery so the butterflies have some space, or would you plant it in your herb garden? I mean, because you could still go out and harvest it for medicine if it's in another part of your yard and not there so what do you see people doing?
Fatima Matar: Here in Ottawa I have actually seen people take apart their grass and just do a completely full garden from top to bottom. I have seen also people plant common milkweed, swamp milkweed, butterfly weed milkweed, but the only thing is common milkweed spreads by the root. So not a lot of people plant it because of that reason, because the minute you plant it into the ground it just spreads like wildfire. Whereas swamp and butterfly weed, they just sprout by the seed. So once it produces the seed pods, those seed pods fly away into the air, and then wherever that seed lands it'll produce for the next year.
Nada Beydoun: I'd love to also add more about just the conservation issues with the milkweed. Yeah, there's so many factors affecting it. There's the climate change, I mean, a lot of the extreme weather events have been causing hurricanes and snowstorms that are unexpected and these are killing off the milkweed as well as some droughts are not allowing the milkweed to grow. And also sometimes with these high temperature fluctuations, it has the monarchs thinking that they need to start their migrations even before the milkweed has grown and is available for them to make use of. You also mentioned this with the habitat destruction, there's a lot of illegal and also legal logging happening and deforestation for agriculture and urban development, and this has significantly destroyed these areas in Mexico and in California where these monarchs are supposed to be using as their overwintering grounds. And I think in Mexico, there's been over 1,000 acres of the monarchs forest habitat that has been cleared since 2008, which is just so upsetting to hear. Even just in general, the milkweed habitat has decreased by 160 million acres in the last 17 years. So that's 20% of the eastern US breeding area, and these areas are now being used for farming of soybean and corn and urban development. And another big issue that's affecting the conservation of milkweed is systemic, widespread use of pesticides. So a lot of these herbicides are killing the butterflies and the milkweed food sources. These insecticides are being absorbed in the plants and the tissues and the leaves and the nectar and the flowers, and these are toxic to monarch caterpillars that are feeding. And it's been really devastating and it's really contributed to the decline of the milkweed habitat. Yeah, a lot of conservation efforts do need to be done to work to protect this beautiful iconic species.
Tara Ruth: Wow. It's really you outline this context for all of this destruction of milkweed and monarch's habitats, and then to hear that milkweed's also classified as this noxious weed feels like there's almost this dissonance there. And I'm thinking too about what you were saying, Fatima, about how it really matters what type of milkweed you're planting. One can just spread super quickly from roots and then some spread from seeds. And I was doing a little bit of reading on milkweed, and I learned that in recent years in the US that it became popular to start planting a tropical variety of milkweed. And then this actually disrupted some monarch migrations because they were blooming at different times and queuing the monarchs to migrate at different times. So I'm curious what your thoughts are on the importance of what type of milkweed you plant, and perhaps that has something to do with classifications too of like what is noxious and not. Does it matter if you're planting a native milkweed? How should people go about if they're really wanting to incorporate more milkweed into their gardens and their spaces that they tend?
Fatima Matar: Of course planting native milkweed is very, very important, especially to your areas. So for example, for here in Ottawa our top three native ones are swamp, common and butterfly weed. We have a lot of common here in Ottawa, but now when you drive around and once you know what a milkweed looks like, you'll automatically just see it everywhere you go. My niece and nephews are just like, "Hey, look, that's milkweed." And we're driving by on the highway and they'll just point it out and they're about 10, 11, so they know what it looks like now, but it's very important to plant your native ones. So for example, if I'm trying to plant an Arizona milkweed, there is one called Arizona Milkweed, but I can't grow it here in Ottawa because we have cold winters, so it will definitely not survive. So planting native milkweeds in your area specifically is very, very key.
John Gallagher: It's just strange to me that it's declared a noxious weed that's a native plant. I mean, often the native plants the sour people out there will declare plants that are taking over areas as invasive, and they'll put awareness campaigns out there. But it seems like there's just a disconnect between whoever declared that and the fact that these are really necessary for butterfly habitats.
Nada Beydoun: Yeah, I mean, there's some literature out there even showing that planting these native milkweeds that includes common milkweed as well, they actually are able to attract native insects that are even on agricultural crop areas. They're able to attract these insects that are predators of the pests that are growing on these crops, so it is a benefit to these crops and it's all about just the ecosystem working together. They all co-evolve together, and I mean that's why there's so much importance to growing milkweed that is native because over time they preserve that genetic diversity of these native plants. And they will be able to grow better in these areas and support these pollinators better if they're native. Also, to add to Tara what you were saying about the tropical milkweed, I know that's a pretty controversial topic. And it's interesting because tropical milkweed is becoming more popular. I know it's sold at plant centers and all these nurseries, and it's a very beautiful plant, but there is this negative impact to the monarchs. So it's impacting them in the way that their migration patterns are starting to change. Where these migratory monarchs are becoming non-migratory because of this constant supply of tropical milkweed. Instead of dying back like the other milkweeds during the winter seasons, it stays blooming. It can tolerate these mild climates and so because of that they're starting to breed, and also there's this issue with a protozoan parasite called OE. It's ophryocystis elektroscirrha, and these plants are being heavily infected by this parasite and get transmitted to all the monarchs, and it's very devastating. It's killing off these monarchs. So because of that in the southern states and in California they're saying that these tropical milkweeds should at least be cut down in the winters to avoid this from happening. I actually saw some of these tropical milkweeds growing in our public spring gardens, and I was kind of surprised. I was like, oh, I wonder why that's growing here. There's so much controversy around the potential harm that it can do to these monarchs, but I then doing further research I realized, okay, so there's no way this plant would survive the winters here because of the snow and the climate. So either way, it'll be dying back so it wouldn't really pose an issue to the monarchs. But even with that said, of course, it's always preferred to be planting these native milkweeds to the area that you're in.
Tara Ruth: That makes so much sense. And as we're talking about the importance of stewarding native milkweeds for the monarch butterfly population, I just wanted to back up a little bit and just really presence why monarchs are so important. Could you talk a little bit about that, Fatima? I think I know why it matters, but why does it matter if we're stewarding monarch butterflies?
Fatima Matar: Everything is quite important honestly when it comes to pollinators, it's very key to have our monarchs. And as I mentioned earlier, they are becoming extinct. It was mentioned last year, I believe. It's such a beautiful, bright black on orange butterfly. I mean, why wouldn't you want to keep seeing it around, right? So I would definitely encourage people to take the time to research the monarch and just what milkweed really is and how you can get it and just put it in your garden. It doesn't have to be in the ground, it can be in a pot, but milkweed and monarchs are very, very important.
Nada Beydoun: Yeah. Just speaking on the topic of why monarch butterflies are so important, there's just so much ecological, cultural, educational value to monarchs in terms of the ecology. They have such a vital role in plant reproduction and ecosystem health. They help transfer pollen from one flower to the other and just fruit production, and they provide us and all this wildlife with fiber and food and so many other products. And I mean, I think one third of the global food production relies on pollinators like the butterflies and the bees. And one great way to conceptualize that is if you had a plate of food, one third of that plate will be there because of the pollinators. So it just shows that importance of these monarchs and all of these other pollinators. And also like we spoke about this before about just the conservation issues with milkweed and the monarchs, but the decline of monarch butterfly populations are a great indicator of the habitat health and just the impact of human activity on the natural world. It indicates climate change and habitat loss and use of pesticides. So due to that, monarchs are such a symbol for environmental activism and conservation, and brings a lot of attention to protecting biodiversity. And also monarchs have such an important cultural significance. They truly are iconic and they come up in art and cultural events and literature. And I think it is really because the monarchs symbolize this transformation and metamorphosis from going to the caterpillar stage to the chrysalis, to the adult butterfly. And so a lot of people are able to relate with that, and of course, it's a sign of beauty. I always come across all these murals in the different cities that I live of just monarchs and usually in association with akinesia. And there's also a lot of traditional beliefs around the monarch butterfly as well. One that may be more commonly known is how in Mexico they're seen as a symbol of the souls of deceased loved ones and apparently every year on Halloween or the Day of the Dead, it's around the time that the monarchs arrive in the forests. It's when they come to the forests where they over winter, and it's seen as a symbol of visiting their loved ones and also in celebrating their memories.
John Gallagher: As we're recording this I'm actually taking a little time and visiting Costa Rica, and I saw a lot of monarch butterflies in the jungle just last week and it was really, really amazing. And then it was making me think of all of those days when I was young, how in school how we would try to get through the whole process to the chrysalis to the butterfly and learning about that. And I remember in New Jersey, back in those days, how we would see monarch butterflies all the time around. And as time went on and I got older I noticed that they weren't around as much. And for me it was that, as well as the same with reptiles and amphibian species in my yard growing up, seeing them disappear that's what got me into getting into the environment and wanting to do something about it. And we've been talking about on this with Fatima and Nada about habitat destruction and all that, and when I was younger in my neighborhood it was about chemical lawn care that was getting rid of the diversity and everything and everyone needing to add that lawn. Thinking about what if everyone just left their lawns and meadow and let the butterflies come in? And for me the dandelion was a symbol of that, and that's why it's in the logo of LearningHerbs, because dandelion is this amazing plant that people underestimate and don't understand. And that is having such an effect on the wildlife 'cause people have been poisoning it. So yeah, I think about that whole ecological point of view, and that's like on HerbMentor Radio over the years. I mean, I just had this realization just now because I was like, well why did I get into herbs? And [inaudible 00:28:44].
Tara Ruth: Yeah, why did you get into herbs John?
John Gallagher: A lot of people say it's because my grandmother taught me and I got really fascinated by this. Or often it's, I had a big health issue and the herbs and natural healing helped me recover. And for me it was definitely the environment, what I call our life support system, why we poison and why we destroy our life support system and raising awareness is really for me, what's at the heart of LearningHerbs and all that we do here. Because when you're out learning about herbs and harvesting and growing them, you're connecting to the environment, connecting to nature, and how can you not then have a positive impact on the environment? So for me, it's my way of being an activist, but I'm sensing there's a bit of that in you too, Tara.
Tara Ruth: Yeah. I think that working with the plants reminds me that there's not a separation between me and nature, that as humans we are part of nature and when we're building these relationships with a lot of intention with plants, we're just reminding ourselves how we're all connected in this big web. And it feels a lot more inevitable and a lot easier to show up in right relationship to the plants, to the environment at large when we're really invested in these relationships. Whether it's with growing milkweed or thinking about how you relate to dandelions and how you relate to your lawn.
John Gallagher: Yeah. And on HerbMentor, which is our membership site from LearningHerbs, we have a couple of courses that come to mind. One is Cultivating Wellness, which has a permaculture point of view building natural systems. Not just taking the Basil plant and just sticking it in the ground, but actually focusing on the soil building. Also, Wildcrafter's Toolkit, which is a companion to the book Wild Remedies by Rosalee de la Foret and Emily Han, which every chapter takes it from a point, has a section in it about wildlife and the impact and teaches sustainable wildcrafting and for you being part of it. So that's what I love about herbalism is you could make yourself part, it connects you deeply to the natural world and that's the magic. And I think that's so much worth the healing comes from not just the constituents of the plant. So that's just something to think about and which is why we had Fatima and Nada on today because what beautiful cousins. They're just so wonderful from the perspective that they take it from.
Tara Ruth: I'm excited for people to hear more too. In a little bit, we're going to talk about their story and how they got into the plants and how they started building their relationship with milkweed and other plants, and I'm excited for people to hear.
John Gallagher: Yeah, me too. And might as well just get back to that, but first, if anybody wants to check out HerbMentor for listeners of HerbMentor Radio, if you go to herbmentorradio.com, you can not only subscribe to the podcast feeds there and whatnot, but we also have a little offer for those you want to check out HerbMentor in case you think that's something for you. Again, it's all about connecting yourself to nature and the herbs.
Tara Ruth: Absolutely.
John Gallagher: So, you want to take us back in here, Tara?
Tara Ruth: Let's do it. Let's get back to our conversation with Nada and Fatima, and I'm just so excited to share it with you all. Right before we hopped on this recording too, Fatima, you were saying you had all of these little seedlings that you were tending to, all these milkweed seedlings. And I'm curious, what do you plan to do with them? Are you going to plant all of those in your garden? Do you share those in your community?
John Gallagher: Guerrilla gardening where you're out just putting them all over the place?
Tara Ruth: Yeah, at the Starbucks.
John Gallagher: At the Starbucks.
Tara Ruth: Yeah.
Fatima Matar: You'll see me this summer with my tiny little shovel just going around Ottawa just planting milkweed everywhere, marking my territory. Actually, the seedlings that I have started, they're actually for a bursary here at Algonquin College, it's called Seedling for Students. It's a bursary for single mothers that go to the college but can't afford school textbooks, et cetera. So last year they approached me and said, "Hey, would you like to plant milkweed?" And I said, "Absolutely, let's do it." So this year they asked me to come back, and this year I have over 63 plants currently just sitting in one of my rooms. My mom's like, "Isn't it too early to start your planting?" No, mom, it's never early to start.
John Gallagher: Wow. How about you, Nada? Do you incorporate milkweed into your herbal work that you do or make remedies?
Nada Beydoun: Yeah, I feel like I've been more on the side of not using it. Right now, I'm mostly using the substitute herbs, but I know it really depends on the circumstances.
John Gallagher: Really good point.
Nada Beydoun: I mean, some people, especially working with COVID symptoms, some herbalist have really found that it was effective and that other herbs were not really able to substitute as well. But I haven't worked with it medicinally, I've mostly been trying to grow the seeds over the last few summers. It's been a trial and error process together with Fatima, and she's been guiding me on this journey. It really started, it was at the summer 2020 for me. I was working at a community garden for the immigrant services and there was someone who came in to install a pollinator garden. And that was my first time really seeing swamp milkweed and just noticing it and learning about it. And I just thought it was the most beautiful plant. I remember texting Fatima pictures and we were just freaking out over it. It was so exciting, so from that point onwards, I've started to try to grow some. That first summer Fatima sent a plastic Ziploc bag of the seeds in the tissue paper to try to get me to grow them. It unfortunately didn't work out. The following year, I tried to grow them again. It didn't work out so she sent with my family a whole box of milkweed seedlings. They were driving 15 hours with that box of milkweed plants. So yeah, I was able to put some of them into the ground, and then this past summer I finally was successful after so much experimentation and growing the seeds. And a lot of people can be intimidated growing milkweed from seeds and might prefer getting sources from nurseries or garden centers, but that's something to caution about because sometimes they contain these pesticides and insecticides and can actually be harmful to the monarchs. So it's good to know about your source and to just preferably find a local grower if you can to get these milkweeds if you're not able to grow them from seed.
John Gallagher: And just to recap, again, which species are people looking for? Or if you have the botanical name off the top of your head too, just so like, okay, I want to grow milkweed or I want to go find some starts, what should folks be looking out for?
Fatima Matar: So planting milkweed, like I mentioned before, native is very important so I would recommend Googling what is native in your area. Once you know what's native, you can then go in and look, okay, well where can I find seeds? Where can I purchase them? Or where can I find a plant from a local nursery? I know here in Ottawa, I know I did a lot of research back in 2020 before I started, summer 2020, just spending time on Google. What types of native milkweed are here in Ottawa? Where can I find them? Where can I find the seeds? So I have both seeds and actual plants from nurseries here at home. So I like to do both, but it's very highly recommended just spend that time to do that research, 'cause like I said, here in Ottawa could be different from what Nada has in Halifax versus what Tara and John have in California. So it's very important that you just spend that time to research and look into it.
Tara Ruth: That makes so much sense. I love the intention that you both bring to your relationships with milkweed, whether it's making sure that you're doing that research before figuring out what to plant, and then Nada, you were talking about you might be in deep relationship with milkweed, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to work with it medicinally right now because you've done that research to see that it doesn't feel like it's in right relationship right now to work with that plant medicinally.
John Gallagher: That's my biggest takeaway and I feel like is a major takeaway of our conversation.
Tara Ruth: I love that you both are building this relationship with milkweed in such an intentional way. And I'm really curious, you two are cousins and I'm wondering how did you both end up on this super intentional plant path? How did this happen for you both? Where did the seed, if you will, get planted?
Fatima Matar: So we come from a big gardening family. Our grandfather loved, loved planting. He used to have his own community center location where he would go every summer, every morning and just spend hours and hours and hours gardening. And even in our backyard here at home, he would just garden. So that's where Nada and I have that connection, but then I kind of reeled her in to that whole milkweed and monarch-
Tara Ruth: Well done.
Fatima Matar: Conversation. So now she's kind of stuck with me and just that journey that we're going on.
Nada Beydoun: I love it. I am absolutely loving the milkweed journey. Definitely, I mean, to add on to what you were saying, Fatima, yeah our grandfather was such a big gardener and even from our own ancestral homeland in Lebanon, plants are such a key part of the people's lives. The land, the plants are just an extension of your body and your days are almost completely surrounded by the plants. You'd have fig trees, olive plants, orchards, walnut plants all growing on your property. And being stewards of the land was just a part of the life there, and it even followed their immigration to Ottawa as well. So Fatima, she lived with my grandfather, so she saw that firsthand where he would be growing all of these plants and I think it just extended to the entire family. I mean, I'm also inspired by my mother's green thumb. She's always planting and even here in Canada, she can grow dates.
John Gallagher: Wow.
Tara Ruth: Wow. That's very impressive.
Nada Beydoun: Yeah, like the palms and the avocado plants and all of these different plants so easily and just plants are such an important part of our family's life. And I mean, even when they were in Germany, my mom remembers that they would go and try to get these apples and fruits from all of these trees that no one there was using. That's when she was a young child before coming to Canada, but even in Canada, my mom and also her sisters were always going with my grandfather harvesting plants like mallow and dandelion leaves. I mean, dandelion leaves are so popular because we use that to cook, just the leaves and we eat that with pita bread. And we really have that harvesting culture where you see what plants are around you abundantly and to use that as part of just daily life.
Tara Ruth: I love those plants you just named there too that are so abundant and that intentionality you're bringing to okay, when we are out here foraging or harvesting, you're getting dandelion greens, mallow, apples, these abundant plants and...
Nada Beydoun: Absolutely. Especially because, I mean, you might see if you ever go to a Lebanese grocery, but some of the leaves that they'll sell there are dandelion leaves, just bunches and bunches of dandelion leaves because back in Lebanon that was a normal leafy green that you would consume. And so because here really for the longest time before these bigger groceries opened, and in some provinces like in Halifax, we don't really have groceries that would sell dandelion leaves consistently, you would have to depend on foraging and harvesting these leaves instead to make up your diet.
Tara Ruth: Well, thank you both so much for joining us. It has been such a pleasure chatting with you both and-
John Gallagher: Absolutely.
Tara Ruth: Hearing your stories about milkweed and even just this what you were just talking about with dandelion, Nada. I'm still really taking that in and just so beautiful to get to chat with you both. And for folks who are interested in following your journeys and learning more about milkweed, Fatima, they can follow you on Instagram @naturewithfatimam and then Nada, they can follow you on Instagram @beybotany, and that's B-E-Y botany. And I highly encourage people to follow you both. And also if you want to see more of Nada's work, we have a few great blog posts from you on our blog. And then you also just wrote a saffron monograph that we're going to put up and I just got to read it and it was amazing.
Nada Beydoun: Oh, my God, thank you.
Tara Ruth: It was so fun to learn about saffron from you and I'm really excited for more people to read it.
John Gallagher: Oh, great.
Nada Beydoun: Absolutely
John Gallagher: That's great. Thank you both.
Tara Ruth: Yeah. Thank you both.
Nada Beydoun: Thank you.
Fatima Matar: Thank you so much for having us.
Nada Beydoun: HerbMentor Radio is written and produced by John Gallagher and Tara Ruth, sound Engineering by Zach Frank. Visit herbmentorradio.com to subscribe on your favorite podcast app and for information on how to be part of HerbMentor, your home for herbal education. HerbMentor Radio is a production of learningberbs.com LLC, all writes reserved. Thank you so much for listening.
