John Gallagher: You are listening to HerbMentor Radio by Learning Herbs. I'm John Gallagher.
Tara Ruth: And I'm Tara Ruth. Today, we're chatting with Rosemary Gladstar and Susan Leopold. Rosemary Gladstar is literally a star figure in the field of modern herbalism, internationally renowned for technical knowledge and stewardship in the global herbalist community. She has been learning, teaching, and writing about herbs for over 40 years and is the author of 11 books. She's the founding president of United Plant Savers, and founder and past director of the International Herb Symposium. And Susan Leopold is an ethnobotanist and passionate defender of biodiversity. Over the past 20 years, Susan has worked extensively with Indigenous peoples in Peru and Costa Rica. She's the executive director of the United Plant Savers and Director of the Sacred Seeds Project. She's a proud member of the Potomac Indian Tribe of Virginia and the author of the Children's book, Isabella's Peppermint Flower, teaching about Virginia's botanical history. She lives on and manages a productive farm, the Indian Pipe Botanical Sanctuary with her three children in Virginia where she raises goats, peacocks, and herbs, of course.
John Gallagher: Welcome, Rosemary and Susan. Thank you so much for joining us.
Rosemary Gladstar: That's great. Thank you, John and Tara for having us.
Susan Leopold: Yeah. Happy to be here.
John Gallagher: So Rosemary and Susan, the upcoming International Herb Symposium is run by and a benefit for United Plant Savers. And for the first time, this event, rather than a keynote speaker, has a keynote species. You're taking it from the plant's perspective. So I'd like to start the conversation with about the plant's perspective. What do you mean by this? How is it done, and how is it important for herbalists?
Susan Leopold: This was really something that I came up with because this past year, in the off year of the International Herb Symposium, we did the first International Herb Symposium Film Festival. And in this film festival, there were just so many incredible, wonderful shorts and longs. And two of them that really stuck out was the one short film, Saging the World, and another short film called Food That Grows On Water, which features the wild rice and how unique that is to North America. This idea came about really highlighting the plant's perspective as we gather for the International Herb Symposium.
John Gallagher: Because when I first went to International Herb Symposium like 12, I forgot what it was when we met Rosemary there, but I didn't know what I was going to. It was like a symposium. It sounds so dry, yet it was an experience. So I'd love to hear about that experience and what makes this different, what makes an experience. Susan said the chapel experience like, what? So there's a whole vibe and thing that happens there to be part of it. I'd love to hear about how you design that or what it has evolved into.
Rosemary Gladstar: Yeah. I love the slogan for the International, which is, "Come for the plants, stay for the party." Because in a way, it is an enormous celebration and for the plants and for the people who love plants. And I actually really love Susan's idea of having keynote plants rather than keynote people because it really puts the focus on the plants. And in truth, there are so many dynamic teachers that come. It's hard to just pick one or two to give a keynote. The keynote can be so inspiring, but each of those workshops are so inspiring with this incredible different speakers that represent so many different backgrounds and different experience with the plants. So how those evenings, those gatherings in that chapel happened was because one of the things that I've always loved about these gatherings is they brought us together.
Tara Ruth: Can you talk a little bit more about those two plants that you chose as well and what really, you talked about seeing a few documentaries about those two and just what really inspired you to bring these two into them?
John Gallagher: And that would be wild rice and sage, white sage.
Susan Leopold: Yeah. United Plan Savers has been working on bringing awareness to the issue surrounding white sage for a few years now. And in that process, I've written several articles that have spurred several more articles and it really became a catalyst between bringing several of state and federally recognized tribes in California. And a real leader has been the California Native Plant Society and the film that was produced, Saging the World. It's about I think 15 minutes long and it actually got our Rosemary Gladstar Awards. We were able to gift the makers of the film $5,000 to continue to promote the film and you can go on YouTube and watch it. You can go to links on our website and watch it.
Rosemary Gladstar: It's amazing.
Susan Leopold: It's a very powerful film and I think they did a really wonderful job of presenting all the different perspectives and in the devastation that the white sage trade has had on wild habitats in both California and Mexico. And this idea that there's a plant that can be grown so easily that there is a way to have both, to have trade, and to have organically grown white sage. But the demand has been so intense. Just in the last five years, it's just grown exponentially. And when you watch this film and you see the devastation, United Plant Savers got involved. I think it was about three and a half, four years ago when they started to have several arrests in the San Bernardino area in the Etiwanda Preserve. And it brings up all kinds of layers because it's the people who are out there harvesting or often people who have no other choice. It's a form of really, I don't know, slavery in a way. I mean, it's super heavy. It's often people who have no other choice. They're out there trying to get money however they can, and then you have this industry.
You have no traceability, you have no rules or regulations. So really kudos to everybody who pulled together. And I've been really a part of this for several years and just, it's allowed me to make incredible connections and strengthen the California Native Plant Society, did a whole issue of their journal on the white sage and I got to write for it and work with all these different individuals. Some of them, from the movie, will come and be there to talk about it. And I think they've, like I said before, I think it's a good example of how to not demonize anything, but really present how important white sage is to indigenous cultures, and also how there is a way forward and bringing more awareness and potential work to lay the groundwork to have, because white sage isn't federally listed, right? It's not considered threatened or endangered, but yet it's under all this stress. So the idea of having white sage be acknowledged at the state level as a culturally significant plant, that would bring more awareness and protection and provide more accountability in the supply chain. So I think telling this story from the plant's perspective, I think it gives people the tools and awareness of where these plants come from and how to ask good questions and how to approach these complicated issues of cultural sensitivities, and also to honor those cultural values and significance that white sage as a medicinal plant plays. So anyway, I think it's a wonderful, that has just really come through pretty heavily. And from Standing Rock to all the people fighting all the pipelines, the threat that these pipelines are bringing to areas of Minnesota and regions where the wild rice grows. And Nathan Wright, who's one of our board members, really brought it to our attention so we have it added to one of our in review species. And then this film, Food That Grows On Water, which is a very short film that tells us, from indigenous perspectives, how important it is to grow out, to go out and to harvest this wild rice, how unique it is to North America and how dependent it is on water.
John Gallagher: It was hard to turn it down. And so what I would like to talk about is United Plant Savers. For Rosemary, when this came to you, this idea, and I believe it was with some other friends of yours too or if you thought of when this came to you first, because when I was starting learning about herbs and I heard the United Plant Savers was around in those at that time as well, I didn't really understand or connect with the importance like, "What plants are we trying to save? The plants are everywhere. What?" I didn't get the importance of that. What point did you say, "Hey, there's something going on out there that people need to be aware of."? Even if you're a home herbalist and you're making a few remedies or you're growing a garden, that this is important stuff to know.
Susan Leopold: And it really happened at the International Herb Symposium, correct? I mean.
John Gallagher: Yeah, yeah.
Susan Leopold: Just like full circle, but go ahead.
Rosemary Gladstar: Yeah. It's true. The International Herb Symposium played a really key part in bringing us together. But I had, it really happened because when I moved from California to New England and I was living in a beautiful wilderness area where I should have found a lot of the plants that were native here on the East Coast. And I'd been using and selling and teaching about these plants from my herb store and my herb school out on the West Coast so I was really excited to meet them. And I would hike, I spent those first couple years hiking a lot and getting to know a lot of the weedy plants, but I really didn't ever find goldenseal or ginseng. I found a little black cohosh and I found some blue cohosh, but very, very little of these plants that really should have been prolific there. And it triggered something in my mind because it wasn't an issue that we were talking about. It wasn't like a light bulb went off yet, but I had gone over to Switzerland and I'd been hiking up in those mountains in the Alps. And it's beautiful as the Alps are. They are incredibly beautiful. They're very tame. Everything about Switzerland is very tame, even the wilderness. So when I came back to my home in Vermont and I was just looking out at this vast wilderness, that I was so glad for the messiness of nature. And I was walking out in the woods right after that and I was lamenting that these plants weren't here, and I really literally heard the Earth speak. It was one of those times when I got an English message. It was so clear. It was like the light bulb. It was like, "You should start planting us." And I just heard that message like that. And I was getting ready for, I think it was the 4th International Herb Symposium. It was in 1994. And I sent an invitation out to about, there was about 30 of us. 30 different herbalist who were going to be there, who represented all the different aspects of herbalism because I wanted to get different opinions. And I just invited them to stay after, just to spend the night and stay after so we could just meet and just have a session. And as we sat in one of those little dorm rooms, actually I think there was around 25 or 30 so we were pretty crowded.
John Gallagher: Just so the folks know, International Herb Symposium takes place at Wheaton College, on a campus south of Boston. So talking about dorms and all that.
Rosemary Gladstar: Yeah. We were in the dorm room there. One of the old dorms, one of those old Ivy League colleges. And it was so interesting because it was brought up as a question, really. Is anybody else noticing there's a problem going on? And it was so beautiful to listen in that circle how we all have had the same concerns. Every single person there, no matter where they lived in the country, they had all felt that where they had gone back to do their wildcrafting or these plants that were so precious they weren't finding. They did even some of the more common ones. So we really, I have to say, started United Plant Savers based on that question. Is there a problem? We answered yes. And if there is a problem, is there something we can do about it? And there was just, "Yeah. We need to do something about it." And that was the beginning really of that organization. But even more importantly than that, which is an organization I love with all my heart and I'm so grateful for Susan and her leadership, but I would say even more important than the organization was the fact that it began to turn the herbal community slowly towards really looking at the plants themselves. It wasn't just, what can we do? What can the plants do for us? It was really the first time that we were turning to the plants and looking, what can we do for you? What is it that we can do? And I think for myself and for lots of other herbalist, it began, it really put us on a different track with our herbal work.
Tara Ruth: I love thinking about that too, that question you just asked of what can we do for the plants, not just what can the plants do for us because it can be so easy to just look up all of the different properties of a plant and be like, "Great, I want that. You know what? I want that plant that I can order from the store and that plant." And I'm curious for the home herbalist, what do you think, whether the home herbalist who's making some garlic honey or the herbalist who's like, maybe I want to be a clinician someday. What can the beginner herbalist and the home herbalist really do to answer that question in their lives? So what can I do for the plants? How can I show up in relationship?
Rosemary Gladstar: Maybe I'll start and then I know Susan will have some great ideas but I would say one of the very first things is to become a voice for the plants and join United Plant Savers because we can be isolated, but really it's because this little organization has grown in membership that we are able to be a louder voice. So I just feel like anybody who loves plants and wants to be involved, that's just a very simple thing to do, is to join and become part of this larger voice. Because the larger that organization is, the more impact people will have. So that's one thing. But the second thing is obviously we need to, people are always educating and trying to teach each other. It's so important to know the dosage and to know what herbs are safe or not safe. And I'd say all that's important.
John Gallagher: It's like we're all part of this. I want, I don't know for lack of a better term, like a movement in a way because we're helping with habitat loss, with climate change, and we're planting plants, and even during the pandemic with supply chains and all going on, it's like breaking down, seeing the value of the plants that grow around us and the plants in our garden. And sometimes, we just think of ourselves out here like, "Oh what? Just me, I'm harvesting or I'm in my garden." But we are linked to a greater community of folks doing and thinking like this too. And that's one of the big gifts of United Plant Savers as well, right? Susan?
Susan Leopold: Yeah, absolutely. And just to build on the discussion, one of the really wonderful programs that United Plant Savers started after initiating the Botanical Sanctuary in Rutland, Ohio, which is where we're located, anybody can create a botanical sanctuary. So I mean, just especially during the pandemic, the number of sanctuaries that people created and submitted was exponential. So I think, I don't know, I can't keep up with it, but I think we're well over 200 plus sanctuaries and you can go on the website and you can look at your state and you can see what registered botanical sanctuaries are there. And it's a great way to connect with like-minded people. But I think like you were saying, that chain reaction, I mean it's really, we're living in a world where we manifest our reality and it's very... Plants are extremely empowering.
Rosemary Gladstar: I think that is the key, Susan. You're right, sometimes people get so discouraged by all the heaviness and the bad news. But that's one of the things about plant people is when you start to work with plants, they just lift your heart up. And the work is fun and joyful. It's hard sometimes and it's never ending, but it's always joyful and fun. So they just bring so much to people's lives, the beauty, and their nourishment, their healing energy. And they connect us in this amazing way to this great web of life and they also connect us to people, like you were saying, around the world because it's one of the things that we hold in common is this, our ancestral knowledge and love of plants. It's something that's universal with all cultures around the world. Every culture has an herbal history, an herbal background, and it's something that we share as humanity. It's pretty incredible.
Tara Ruth: Heart work and hard work.
John Gallagher: Yeah. You mentioned plant people. Imagine gathering of over 1,120. I don't remember what it was last time, plant people, the International Herb Symposium, and it hasn't happened live. And this'll be four years this June.
Susan Leopold: Yes.
John Gallagher: It's going to be quite a party.
Susan Leopold: It's going to be quite a party. Yes. We're really excited. I mean, there's a big buzz about it. We've got a great lineup of teachers and there's going to be some amazing vending, lots of cool activities during free time. The chapel will be filled with stories and music and lots of plant walks. And there really is this, I'm so honored to be a part of it in this capacity because there's such a long history. And they've had, Wheaton's gone through some transitions. They have a new president. They've gotten some funds to do some upgrades to their campus. But despite all of that, there's just this buzz about having us back there. They want us back there. People tell stories to other Wheaton staff members about, "Oh, we can't wait for the Herb Symposium to come back." And the staff in the cafeteria are coming up with ideas to make sure the line's not too long. I mean, they do a wonderful job with the food. They do a wonderful job hosting us. And though there's been some changes, they're just really excited to have us back.
John Gallagher: That's so important. Community and connecting with others is so important. Be amazed when you show up. The people that everyone who goes is going to meet somebody, meet people that they're going to make friends. Friends for life or friends with plants for life. And it's just a magical experience and I love every... I can't say I've ever been to an herbal event or conference that I didn't like.
Tara Ruth: So true.
John Gallagher: Herb Symposium, Herb National, they're all great that I've been to. But International Herb Symposium, that's a special place on my heart. I've been to so many of them and it's a magical place. And Kimberly, my wife, Kimberly's going to be teaching as well. So if any Kimberly fans out there.
Susan Leopold: Yeah.
Rosemary Gladstar: I know. I love that. It was so great to see that. I think one of the reasons why the International is so special and it's special to all the participants and the teachers as well is because of the diversity of speakers and because speakers come from all over the world. And I know that when we would host the conferences that were more local and stuff, it was a sense of building community and family together that has been going on since the really early 1970s with these events and inclusiveness. Everybody was welcome. But so we really built a very strong community that's continued to be built in this country and it's becoming much more diverse, which is so beautiful to see, and reaching out to so many different communities, which is awesome. But the International has done that same thing on a more international level. So many of the speakers, and they would come from other countries, they felt like this was their first time of being in an herbal community that was so supportive.
Tara Ruth: I'm so excited. I've never been before so this will be my first time this year. And so for people who are wanting to go to the International Herb Symposium, how do they get there? How do they register, internationalherbsymposium.com? Are there any deals or anything like that?
Susan Leopold: We're offering a deal to those listening to the podcast to use the word, SAGE, all uppercase, to get $50 off the registration fee. That will be good until February 1st.
John Gallagher: Whoa.
Tara Ruth: Awesome.
John Gallagher: Thank you very much for that gift for HerbMentor Radio listeners.
Tara Ruth: Yes.
Rosemary Gladstar: May I also just offer too, that I think there's a special discount if people are members of United Plant Savers. Right, Susan?
Susan Leopold: Yes. So we definitely encourage people to become members to find out the discount and certainly, I just want to...
John Gallagher: It might be a better discount.
Susan Leopold: It might be better. Yeah.
John Gallagher: So if you go to unitedplantsavers.org first, just a little hint.
Rosemary Gladstar: I know that we need, maybe I shouldn't have said that, but it seems like we need members.
John Gallagher: Absolutely. No, we should. That was perfect, actually. I love this.
Rosemary Gladstar: Okay. Go ahead, Susan. I'm sorry.
Susan Leopold: I was just going to also say that we did do the International Herb Symposium online and it was really amazing that we had such tremendous support that really helped keep the International Herb Symposium alive and it also really helped United Plant Savers during the pandemic. So a big shoutout to all the supporters of Plant Savers and those that joined the online version of the International Herb Symposium. And we will be doing a hybrid component where some of the classes will be prerecorded. And so when you register for the International Herb Symposium, not only will you get the in-person experience, but then you will have a selection of recorded classes that you'll have over a year to watch. So it's a nice bonus and that'll allow for those who may just want to register just for the online portion, so people around the world can have access to some of these teachers and classes. So that's a component, but the online portion will be included in your registration if you register for the in-person event.
Rosemary Gladstar: That's awesome.
Susan Leopold: Yeah.
Rosemary Gladstar: So good.
John Gallagher: I'm excited. What else should we talk about, Tara?
Tara Ruth: Oh my gosh. A little while ago, Rosemary, you mentioned a list that people could print out and put on their fridge of at-risk plants. Can y'all talk a little bit more about where people could find that, and what is that list exactly? What goes into making that?
Rosemary Gladstar: Susan, why don't you answer that?
Susan Leopold: Okay, great. Yes, you can go on United Plant Savers website and you can click the at-risk link and that will take you to a page where you can download a very nice PDF of the at-risk list. The at-risk list has definitely changed over the years. In some regards, in some respect, the list was really put together in the early days by people really just expressing plants that they had experience with that they were concerned about. And that led to the publication of Planting the Future, which is still an incredible book that you can buy today that has individual chapters written by mostly some of the original board members and advisory board members of United Plant Savers. But since then, Kelly Kindscher, along with his grad student at the time, Lisa Castle, came up with an at-risk tool, and that tool is also on that at-risk page and it's a pretty user-friendly tool. It asks a series of questions and then you rate that plant from 1 to 10. And then with it, the higher the plant scores, the more at-risk the plant is. And it's a great tool just to download and walk through the questions. And the questions really get at understanding, how the plant reproduces in the wild? How long does the plant, how many years does it take to the plant can produce the part that you're actually harvesting? What part of the plant do you harvest? Do you harvest the root? Do you harvest the leaf? Do you harvest the fruit? All these things affect the vulnerability of a plant. And then you have the demand of how in demand in trade is that plant.
Rosemary Gladstar: That's a good answer.
Tara Ruth: That's great. I actually used that. We used that tool when I was in herb school to learn about plants when we are learning about different California native plants. And it was a really helpful way to learn about the plant to go through that process to be like, what parts would I use of this plant? How does this plant show up in commerce? And it's a really beautiful experiential tool to use and you're learning as you're getting excited about the plant.
Rosemary Gladstar: Yeah, it's great to hear.
Susan Leopold: I love to hear that. I mean, the Bastyr students all pick an at-risk plant and write a monograph on it and then give a presentation. No, I love hearing that because I think it's a really accessible tool that herb schools can use, that people who are on their own learning journey, that companies can use when they're making decisions. So all that information is accessible on our website. Everything that we do, we put on the website because we want the information there for people. And when you become a member, it's really just that you're supporting the organization. You will get our journal in the mail, but we also post our journal online.
Rosemary Gladstar: That journal is awesome. Such great herbal candy. It's got such great information in it. I did want to mention also about Kelly Kindscher, who you mentioned, he and Lisa working on that at-risk tool and he's a professor at the University of Kansas, right? Susan?
Susan Leopold: Yeah.
Rosemary Gladstar: He was a board member for a number of years and it was just a great contribution that they made. And it was actually a tool that was used I think by the Fish and Wildlife for determining at-risk fish. I think they used that as the model. So it's a model that is used by the government as well. It was just modified for the plants. So yeah, shoutout.
John Gallagher: I just want to point out there that the website that Susan has been talking about, unitedplantsavers.org, that's where you can find that list. That's where you can donate, that's where you can find out about how to make a botanical sanctuary. This is a way you can volunteer at home and learn about herbs at the same time. Something that we didn't mention, Susan, was when is the International Symposium?
Susan Leopold: Oh yeah.
Rosemary Gladstar: That's important.
Susan Leopold: It's a mythical time. The door in the portal to the other.
John Gallagher: When is the portal open, and where does the portal open? And do we have to take airplanes? Can we just go through the portal?
Susan Leopold: Right. Totally.
Tara Ruth: Good question.
Susan Leopold: I don't have it right in front of me, but I believe it's June 9th, 10th, 11th.
John Gallagher: It is.
Rosemary Gladstar: It's in front of me. It's June 9.
Susan Leopold: Yeah. And Wheaton College is just right outside of Boston. Yes.
John Gallagher: Yeah.
Rosemary Gladstar: It actually was one of the reasons that we chose Wheaton College because it had very easy access by flight, by train, by car. But the other reason that we chose it is because it's adjacent to 200 acres of woodland. They have a large woodland that they maintain there. So it allowed us a place to go walking and planting. We could plant little at-risk plants. We actually did. So it's a beautiful college campus. It's one of the old New England college campuses. But it had this woodlands, which was a central when I was looking for a place. You're going to have an herb conference, you have to have a place to do herb walks. You have to get people out. And this had both. It had easy access. It was a beautiful campus and then it also had the woodlands next to it.
Susan Leopold: And there will be lots of herb walks.
John Gallagher: Yes. And there may, and it's amazing because you can take herb walks and classes with... Oh my god. I remember deciding, "Okay. In this little slot of time, should I go see a class with Rosemary Gladstar, Matthew Wood, or Jim McDonald?" And the choices you have to make can be excruciating in that sense, but you can see everybody there and doing herb walks and it's just incredible. It's like all your favorite herbal rock stars in one spot.
Rosemary Gladstar: I am glad Susan talked so much about the botanical sanctuary because it actually is one of my favorite, it was one of my favorite projects when I came up with that idea of starting those botanical sanctuaries. It took a long time for them to catch on. It was very slow growth at the beginning, but to me, it was just a matter of people reclaiming their front yards and backyards and turning them into little sanctuaries, whether you lived in the city or in the country. So it's great to know that it's continuing, Susan, and just continues to grow.
Susan Leopold: Yeah. And we really encourage people to come and visit. And we have the Medicinal Plant Certificate Program, which is now...
Rosemary Gladstar: That would be a good place to... This would be a really good ending is to talk about people coming to UPS sanctuary.
Susan Leopold: Yeah. We really encourage people to come and visit the sanctuary. We celebrated our 25th anniversary with the opening of the Center for Medicinal Plant Conservation dedicated to Jim and Peggy Duke. And we've grown almost out of our building because we took on the Jim's Botanical Library and we've received other libraries. So now we have this opportunity to come and study with our library that we have. And we have the Deep Ecology Artist Fellowship that you can all apply and come for two weeks and do art and explore the connection with the natural world. So it's really, and we also have the Medicinal Plant Certificate Program, which is a real small group of only six people for four weeks and you really get to plug in and get your hands dirty, learning about propagating medicinal plants and care taking of the botanical sanctuary.
Rosemary Gladstar: If I might mention too, it's worth a visit to the center in Ohio because they have this beautiful medicine trail that just wanders through the woods and also wanders into other neighbors that have opened up their land. It's absolutely an inspiring place for herbalist and plant lovers to go to because I think the very first time I ever went there, I actually went down on my knees and started crying because the hillsides were covered in goldenseal and there was old ginseng growing. So this was the first place I ever really saw these at-risk plants, growing there naturally in abundance. So people who haven't seen these plants, this is still a really botanically rich, very, very unusual area that there are so many of these plants still thriving. And we're so fortunate to be able to purchase this land and put it into a nonprofit that will preserve it forever. So it's a great place to visit.
Susan Leopold: We're ready for you to come. We're ready for you, Rosemary, to come down.
Rosemary Gladstar: I haven't been there for a while. It's time. This summer, I'll get there this summer.
John Gallagher: Speaking of this summer International Herb Symposium, June 9th to the 11th, outside of Boston at Wheaton College, internationalherbsymposium.com. You can sign up and put in the code, SAGE, all uppercase, and get $50 off until February 1st or you could head on over to unitedplantsavers.org first and become a member.
Susan Leopold: Yeah. And it's not...
John Gallagher: Then in that case, you might find even a better discount. Maybe, maybe. I don't want to promise anything, but there's different ways of.
Rosemary Gladstar: You can promise
John Gallagher: You promise.
Rosemary Gladstar: You could promise.
Susan Leopold: And I will add that the IHS is known to sell out.
John Gallagher: Yes, always has.
Rosemary Gladstar: It always does. It always.
John Gallagher: Exactly. I should. Definitely good point, Susan, because I don't think I've ever been there, especially because it hasn't been there for four years and person and people are wanting to be there with each other.
Susan Leopold: And we look forward to seeing you all there.
John Gallagher: Yes, absolutely. I look forward to seeing both views well. And Tara, would you like to take us out?
Tara Ruth: Yes. Are you sure?
John Gallagher: It's got to be a better way of saying that. Don't take us.
Susan Leopold: Take us out on a hike.
Tara Ruth: Yes. Well, Rosemary and Susan, it's been such a pleasure chatting with you both. Thank you so much for joining us and I'm so excited to go to the International Herb Symposium. Yes.
Rosemary Gladstar: Wonderful.
John Gallagher: See you all there. HerbMentor Radio listeners.
