Sajah Popham:
We remember what we experienced. We don't remember what we memorize. And that to me is the best way to learn herbal medicine too. It's like don't just read about it. Go grow it. Go harvest it. Go immerse your senses into it. Taste that plant, put it into your body. Feel the way it moves through your organ systems, the way it affects your system. And you're going to learn that plant by heart. And to me, it's like we want to learn these things by heart, not just memorize them, because we forget what we memorize.
John Gallagher:
You are listening to HerbMentor Radio by LearningHerbs. I'm John Gallagher.
Tara Ruth:
And I'm Tara Ruth. Today we're chatting with Sajah Popham. Sajah is the author of Evolutionary Herbalism: Science, Spirituality, and Medicine from the Heart of Nature. With his wife, Whitney, he co-founded the School of Evolutionary Herbalism and Natura Sophia Spagyrics, which is an herbal extracts company. Sajah Trains herbalists in a holistic system of plant medicine that encompasses clinical Western herbalism, medical astrology, Ayurveda, and spagyric alchemy. You can learn more about Sajah and his work on EvolutionaryHerbalism.com.
John Gallagher:
Welcome, Sajah. You're finally here at HerbMentor Radio.
Sajah Popham:
Finally here.
John Gallagher:
We've known each other like 12 years.
Sajah Popham:
I think it's been about that long, yeah.
John Gallagher:
You, Whitney and I, we met at an herbal conference, or maybe it was the one and only Rootstock Festival, Mountain Rose Herbs. And then we just hit it off from there. And we've been talking and hanging out and everything all that time. I'm just so glad that you are finally here with us today.
Sajah Popham:
Well, thanks so much for having me, John. It's really great to be here. And excited to share with the LearningHerbs community, HerbMentor Radio.
John Gallagher:
I just wanted to say that you and Whitney impressed me so much. I remember the first time I met you. And I went to your booth and I saw all of the extracts that you both made and how many there were. And the labeling and everything. It was just massive, the amount of herbs you were ... Also, your way of going about it and the spagyrics and everything. I was just so immediately impressed. And I was like, "I got to get to know these two. They're awesome." And I was right.
Sajah Popham:
Well, I'm glad you did. Absolutely.
Tara Ruth:
It was written in the stars.
John Gallagher:
It was written in the stars, absolutely.
Tara Ruth:
Yeah. And speaking of astrology and spagyrics, Sajah, I just want to dive right into a few terms from your bio, which are "medical astrology" and "spagyric alchemy." I think most people have an idea of what astrology is. But what does this have to do with herbalism and what exactly is medical astrology?
Sajah Popham:
Yeah, it's a great question. It's a topic I'm really passionate about. And something I really like to express because I think it's something that's actually really misunderstood a lot of times. People hear the word astrology. And oftentimes it can be like an immediate red flag, doors closing, ears stop listening, because I think a lot of times astrology is really misunderstood in terms of what it is and what it does. I think the pop astrology that people see in the newspaper, or just think of it as fortune-telling or telling you who you are is a little bit of a misrepresentation. So for me, astrology is really a tool for understanding a human being holistically. We typically think of astrology as a means for understanding your personality and your qualities and traits and characteristics. But what a lot of times people don't really know is that the whole astrological pattern also has a very physical physiological reflection as well, that all of the archetypal forces in astrology, the planets, the signs, the four elements, the three modes, these all have representations in the body.
And those physical representations of these archetypal forces is really what is at the basis of the practice of medical astrology, which has been utilized cross-culturally around the globe for a very, very long time. The system I predominantly work with is the Western approach, which has very deep roots in European culture. And that is kind of a bridge to the alchemical tradition, which is a very deep part of the work that I do. So for me, the medical astrology, it's just another tool. I think sometimes I get misunderstood a lot in terms of what I do. I think people think I'm sitting with people and doing an "astrology reading," quote, unquote. And it's not really what I do. It's like when I'm working with a person, I'll do a standard intake with someone, the interview and pulse and tongue ... well, not so much pulse anymore because a lot of it's at a distance.
And then on the backend is when I use medical astrology. It's really something I do when I'm reviewing a case. And it's a way of confirming and another lens to look through in terms of evaluating what is the root cause of the problem that this person is struggling with. To me, that's how I utilize it as a tool is it's a way of being able to understand what's causing a problem for a person. The other profound thing about it is that that astrological map, it has a physical representation. But it also represents, as many people know, our psyche, our mental and emotional dynamics, our spiritual dynamics. They say it's like a snapshot of our soul. And so in that way, my approach to herbalism, I really strive to be holistic. I really want to address the whole person. We're not just a body, we're not just our psyche, we're all of it.
And so to me, I want to be able to understand the whole person. And the astrological tool gives us a pattern, a map, a framework, that shows the relationship between the human soul, the human psychology, and human physiology in one system. So for me, that was a really profound tool that has assisted me a lot in being able to better help people. And I think that's the most important thing. It doesn't matter if we use Ayurveda or TCM or pulse evaluation or modern biomedical blood work and hormonal analysis. Whatever tool we use, as long as it's giving us information that gets us to the right remedy, that gets a person healed, that's great. That's great. So for me, it's beyond belief system. It comes down to what works and what's going to better empower us to heal someone. So yeah, so that's just a little bit on the medical astrology side. I guess you asked about spagyrics too, so I'll dig into that real quick as quickly as I can.
Tara Ruth:
Yeah, let's do it.
Sajah Popham:
Yeah. So spagyrics is a branch of the Western alchemical tradition, the European alchemical tradition. And this was a term developed by the Swiss physician and alchemist and metallurgist and wizard, Paracelsus. And "spagyric" means to separate and recombine or to separate and reawaken. And it refers to a branch of alchemy that is specifically concerned with the holistic preparation of plants. So it's a form of herbal pharmacy. I consider it a very advanced form of herbal pharmacy whereby we are able to concentrate the medicinal virtues of a plant while, at the same time, concentrating its more subtle, esoteric virtues or its spiritual virtues as well. So for me, in the same way that I want to work with a person holistically, I want to work with the plant holistically too.
I remember when I was at Bastyr University in the Herbal Sciences program, I wanted to make the most concentrated, powerful herbal medicine I could so that it healed the whole person. But I went about it in this crazy way. I'd be tinkering it and tinkering it again and pressing it, cooking it down, and extracting it in vinegar and extracting it in water and boiling it. But no matter what I did, I always ended up having to compost the herb at the end. And that always really bugged me because I always felt like there's still some medicine in there. And I don't know what it is or how to get it out, but I feel like my medicine's missing something. And when I learned about spagyrics, they say that everything in nature has this threefold pattern that has sulfur, mercury and salt, or soul, spirit, and body.
And they say that in the plant, it's the salt. The body of the plant, its purified form is in the alkali mineral salts. And you get those mineral salts by taking your extracted plant, and you burn it down to an ash, and there's a way of crystallizing all those mineral salts and adding them back into your medicine. When I learned that, it was like, there it is, you know?
Tara Ruth:
Mm-hmm.
Sajah Popham:
That is the secret key that I've been looking for. And there's some really interesting things that happen with those alkaline mineral salts. And that's just one piece of a much larger scheme of spagyrics. But to me, it's a system of pharmacy that gives us a way of concentrating the whole plant. So in a similar way where a lot of people think, "Oh, we want to treat the body." Well, yeah, use a tincture or use a decoction or a powder. But if you want to work with someone on a maybe emotional level or psychological level ... a lot of people use flower essences and that's great. But for me, I was like, "I feel like there should be a singular medicine that encompasses the biochemical side of a plant and the more subtle or esoteric or psychospiritual effect of the plant." And that is what the spagyric does.
John Gallagher:
Oh my gosh. So we got a lot to unpack here. Okay. So the framework. I love that mindset when we're talking about medical astrology first. So it's this framework that people can have that they can use as an intake tool for themselves or if they're working with clients. So then anyone then can use this tool to figure out ... I mean, is it easy for people who learn this to use those for themselves or their families as a framework?
Sajah Popham:
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a lot to learn, for sure. It's not like something you can just read a book on it and be able to really dig ... It's really helpful to study it and to practice it. But yeah, absolutely, it's a way of being able to see inside someone's body and figure out what's going on. I can illustrate it with a recent case that I had actually.
John Gallagher:
Yeah, please.
Tara Ruth:
Oh, please do.
Sajah Popham:
Where I was working with someone and the chief complaint was pretty excessive swelling in the lower extremities, feet, ankles, lower legs, really puffy and swollen. And after doing the intake, it was like, okay, kind of had a sense for what might be going on. But that, as a superficial symptom, can be a sign of a much deeper root cause. I mean, that can be a heart condition, it can be kidney problem, it could be a liver issue, it could be vascular permeability, and their just blood vessels are leaking. So when I'm looking at this, it's like, "Okay, well," for my question is, "what's going on here? What's the underlying cause of this superficial expression of a symptom?"
And after looking at the tongue and looking at facial lines and reading the body based on the work of what Margi Flint teaches, I had a sense of there's some liver stuff going on, but I didn't really know. And so I pulled up her chart. And when I was doing the case review, there was all of these indicators for the liver. Stuff going on with Virgo that rules the liver. Stuff going on with Jupiter that rules the liver. And challenging aspects to things like Mars that indicate inflammation and heat and all this stuff. So I was like, "Oh, man. I think something's going on with her liver." So I said, "Hey." I reached back out. I was going to say, "I think you need to go get some blood work done just get your liver checked out. I just want to make sure everything's okay because this can be an indication."
I didn't tell her this, but in my mind I'm like, "Well, there could potentially be something serious going on here." So she went to her standard primary practitioner and got some blood work done. And sure enough, she had really elevated liver enzymes, AST, ALT, alk phos kind of through the roof. And they ended up digging into her liver. It turns out she has cirrhosis. For me, that tool of medical astrology guided me into trying to figure out what level of help this person needs. Now, if I was just an allopathic herbalist, I would've been like, "Oh, here's some diuretics to drain the fluids and get you peeing more. And get that puffiness and that swelling down. We'll just give you diuretics and call it good." And that might have helped with the superficial symptom, but that's not going to fix the underlying problem. So that's why for me, as an herbalist, I think we need as many tools in our toolbox to be able to holistically assess and evaluate a person.
John Gallagher:
I was wondering when you were saying this with the chart, is it fixed like this person's chart at a time of their birth or whatnot? Or is it dynamic in the sense that, hey, it's also including what's going on now?
Sajah Popham:
Very good question. It's both. So there's two layers to it. And this is actually very much in accordance with an Ayurvedic constitutional theory. So in Ayurveda, they say that we have our ... and I'm probably not pronouncing the terms correctly, so forgive me for anyone that knows how to say these words.
John Gallagher:
That's all right.
Sajah Popham:
But we have our Prakruti, which is our core constitution. They say that when we are born, it's like we are stamped with these elemental patterns that determine our body type and our temperament and things like that. Vata, Pitta, Kapha, etcetera. But then we have our Vikruti. We have our assumed constitution that we adopt through our lifestyle and our diet and where we live and what we consume and how we think and how we feel. And the Vikruti typically is a pathological pattern. It's an imbalance.
And so astrology sees it the same way. You have your natal chart. When you took your first breath of life, they say the archetypal forces and the cosmos are brought into the body. They're brought into the system the moment we take that first breath. And it's like they stamp us with their influence. And that's unchanging. That's the natal chart or what it's also called the radix, which means root. And so there's that. But then everything keeps moving. So that is what we would refer to as the transits. So the way it's seen in medical astrology is we have our core pattern. We have our excesses and our deficiencies and our strengths and our weaknesses. We all have predispositions. We all got our weak spot, right?
John Gallagher:
Mm-hmm.
Sajah Popham:
Where we tend to get sick or what kinds of problems we all uniquely can develop. But they're triggered by those transits. So the practice is get a sense for what those strengths and weaknesses, excesses and deficiencies are. And work with your diet, your lifestyle, herbal medicine, to prevent the onset from those things from ever happening. So it's a very powerful tool for, not only treatment and therapeutics, but really preventative medicine, which I think is a great direction to move into. It's like if we can prevent ourselves from getting sick, yeah, sign me up, right?
Tara Ruth:
Yeah. For folks who want to learn more about medical astrology, do you find it's helpful for them to first just get a lay of the land with, quote, unquote, "regular astrology" and then dive more into medical astrology? Or, yeah, how do you suggest folks begin this journey of learning?
Sajah Popham:
Yeah, it's a really good question. So there's a lot of astrology books out there. And I think there's a lot of really bad astrology books out there, to be perfectly honest.
Tara Ruth:
It's true.
Sajah Popham:
I mean, there's so many. The thing for me is, actually for me, I had a really hard time learning astrology. For a while, years, I was like, "Am I just not supposed to know this?" I would read a book or read a chapter, and it was like in one ear, out the other. I couldn't retain the information because I felt like I had to memorize it all. And it wasn't until it became physical that I understood it. That when I understood that Mars governs our immune system, our adrenals, our blood, inflammation, that when I see a nettle plant and I touch the nettles and I get that hot, red, irritated skin thing that nettles does, and that's Mars, it was like, "I get it now." And now all the stuff that we learn about Mars in a psychological or a spiritual understanding of astrology makes sense.
So for me, it was the medical astrology that actually helped me get all the other more personality-based astrology, I guess. But yeah, I think if people come into it with a little bit of a grasp of what the moving parts are, the three modes, the four elements, the planets, and the signs, that's your basis. That can be really, really helpful. But I think if people just really want to learn the medical side of it, I would just dive right into that and maybe not even bother with ... I mean, I think it's good to understand some of the other dynamics of them. I just want to mention too, okay, three modes of astrology, cardinal, mutable, fixed. Very, very similar to the three philosophical principles of alchemy, of sulfur, mercury, salt. Very similar to the three Gunas and Doshas of Ayurveda. Very, very similar to other triune patterns that we see in medical traditions. Not to mention the four elements. I mean, four elements are basis for most medical systems around the world. Four or five elements depending on the approach. But same–
John Gallagher:
Five.
Tara Ruth:
Five.
Sajah Popham:
So in the West, that–
John Gallagher:
Says the five element acupuncturist.
Sajah Popham:
Right, right. I'm a five element guy too, because to me, in the West, they talk about ether as that fifth element, which is the space. And a chart, the fifth element is the circle. They divide it into a cross. But the fifth element is the circle that encompasses it, the space. So I kind of like having that fifth element.
John Gallagher:
Well, if you go and see the new Disney movie Elemental, you'll understand all this.
Sajah Popham:
Oh, nice.
John Gallagher:
It's really in there. No, I just mentioned about five element acupuncture, that was my way into seeing how to relate health to patterns of nature. And of course, when you start learning one and you only really know of one, you're like, "Oh, this is the right one." And then as time goes on, you talk with other people. And you realize that, "Oh my God, all these cultures around the world that spent thousands of years observing nature and treating people, they all have amazing wisdom and information." I think it's really just drawing. So what are you attracted to and what do you want to get into the most, you know?
Sajah Popham:
Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah, I would agree.
John Gallagher:
You know what, Tara?
Tara Ruth:
What?
John Gallagher:
My favorite part of listening to podcasts, and I listen to a lot of podcasts, I find myself, I really like the commercials.
Tara Ruth:
Yes, they're so good. They're so fun. A moment of levity.
John Gallagher:
Because it's like people are talking. And often they have this style where you don't even know it's a commercial.
Tara Ruth:
Mm-hmm, so true.
John Gallagher:
It's like they're just talking. And the next thing you know, it's just like you found out about something. And you're just like, "Wow, I think I really want that thing." But-
Tara Ruth:
Wait, is this a commercial?
John Gallagher:
Well, no. No, I was just being very meta here. It might be. Well, Sajah is talking about all these plants. And in LearningHerbs, of course, we have a membership site called HerbMentor. And there's a section on herbs where there's all these plant profiles that have been well researched. And you could go there and learn about plants anytime you want. Also, we have this cool, new tool where you could hold ... we have an app too, you know?
Tara Ruth:
Love an app.
John Gallagher:
You download the app and you can go outside and hold it up to a plant and it identifies it for you, or at least gives you a starting place to start looking into it. Then you can tap on to herbs and read about it. And know that you can trust that information because, certainly, you don't always trust everything you find out there online, you know?
Tara Ruth:
Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
John Gallagher:
Especially in podcast ads.
Tara Ruth:
Especially in podcast ads.
John Gallagher:
But I love a ... So Sajah and his site on Evolutionary Herbalism. I've known him so long. Has great website and great information, and he's definitely one of the herbalists that I trust. And I love all the remedies that he makes, and it's so great. But anyway, if you are interested in HerbMentor, if you're a listener on HerbMentor Radio, you can go to HerbMentorRadio.com, and you know what's there.
Tara Ruth:
There may be a discount—
John Gallagher:
... for listeners.
Tara Ruth:
I can't predict the future because I haven't looked at the the chart of the podcast.
John Gallagher:
The chart.
Tara Ruth:
But I am assuming there may be a discount.
John Gallagher:
There may be a discount. So we're going to work on the chart now and we'll get back to you. But meanwhile, let's get back to the podcast.
Tara Ruth:
Let's do it.
John Gallagher:
And do you find that when you're learning medical astrology, someone's learning it ... I remember in acupuncture there wasn't many books because it was sort of like an oral tradition, right?
Sajah Popham:
Mm-hmm.
John Gallagher:
Because it involved a lot of sensory awareness. Is it like sensory awareness learning or is it more intellectual in figuring stuff out or both?
Sajah Popham:
Yeah, that's a really good question too. I mean, I think, for the most part, most people approach it very intellectually. Reading it in a book, listening to an instructor, which is great. But I think there's ways that you can incorporate an experiential understanding of astrology. And that's what really lands the plane, so to speak. It makes it real, it makes it tangible, because these are things that we experience day in and day out. Just the modern human being is so disconnected from nature. We're just not aware of how these cycles and patterns in the cosmos and in the earth are influencing us. So even just simply following the moon is a very simple way of learning the signs of the zodiac. Do that for a number of cycles, and you'll find a pattern of, "Oh, when the moon enters this sign is when I feel really, really good." Because the moon's our feelings.
It's just like it's the closest thing to us. So it's the closest planet to the earth. So we feel it. And so it's a great way to learn. You can look at the cycles of the moon and when it over ... or transits or becomes conjunct or right next to planets in our natal chart, you feel that planetary energy. So it's really like there are ways to make it tangible and experiential. And I think that's the best way to learn it, because how do we learn ... how do we remember things? What we experience. We remember what we experience. We don't remember what we memorize. And that to me is the best way to learn herbal medicine too. It's like don't just read about it. Go grow it. Go harvest it. Go immerse your senses into it. Taste that plant, put it into your body. Feel the way it moves through your organ systems, the way it affects your system. And you're going to learn that plant by heart. And to me, it's like we want to learn these things by heart, not just memorize them, because we forget what we memorize.
John Gallagher:
It's all a great way to connect to nature and everything around us. I imagine journaling's involved and lots of things.
Sajah Popham:
Absolutely. Oh yeah, that's what it's all about. To me, everything comes down to reinvigorating our connection to the natural world because I think that's at the root cause of a lot of things that the modern human struggles with.
Tara Ruth:
I love how you're bringing in this experiential learning piece. It's making me think about your anecdote about nettles and how touching nettle kind of blew your mind, starting to think about how Mars is connected to nettles and connected to different body systems and organs. I'd love to dive into nettles more from an astrological perspective.
Sajah Popham:
Yeah, let's dig into it. Okay. So in the alchemical tradition, it's very common for people to want to work with a plant under a planetary influence. The way most people go about that is they look it up in a book. What planet rules this plant? I don't think that's a very good way to approach it, for a number of reasons. But especially out here. I'm in the Pacific Northwest, most of our local herbs here, you can't look up in those books. They didn't know about those plants. So for me, it went back to the drawing board of, "Okay, what are the characteristics? What are the things we need to look at in a plant to see what planetary power it would be correlated to?" So for me, there's the habitat of the herb, the morphology of it. So if we look at nettles, we see that it has that ... Well, first, let me talk about Mars really quick because it's hard for me to do this without giving a little bit of context.
Tara Ruth:
For sure.
John Gallagher:
Absolutely.
Sajah Popham:
Yeah. So Mars is the Red Planet. And some of the classical attributions of it are war and intensity and bloodshed. And Mars was ... it's the archetype of war and intensity. And it's like the warrior archetype. And so in medical terminology, Mars typically correlates to the blood. It correlates to our immune system and our inflammatory processes. Mars also ... it's what protects because it's the warrior. So it's what protects. So immunity. It's also like the fight-or-flight response, the survival instinct. So the adrenal glands come under its rulership. Classically, it's associated with the male anatomical reproductive system. So I mean, I usually talk about Mars in an hour, but that's the one-minute, quick, high-level overview. The—
Tara Ruth:
The Wikipedia article, yeah.
Sajah Popham:
Yeah. So when we look at nettles, just look at it, it's got those super sharp serrated leaf margins. It's covered in those really sharp needles that are filled with formic acid. It's intense, right?
John Gallagher:
Yeah.
Sajah Popham:
And it kind of dominates an area. When you come upon a big nettles patch, it kind of takes over that little area, which is a very Mars dynamic. Mars kind of likes dominating things, like power over things. And so we see that in its growth dynamic. We see that in its morphology. But then when we look into the medicinal properties, to me, this is when it gets really interesting. So what some of the primary affinities of nettle leaf is that it's a blood purifier. It's a classic alterative. So it cleanses the blood. But it also builds the blood because it's incredibly full of nutrients, especially minerals, and especially one particular mineral, iron.
Well, Mars is the traditional ruler of iron. And so we see nettles is full of iron. Mars rules iron. Our blood is full of iron. So there's this three-way correspondence between them. Of course, we touch nettles. Like I said earlier, you touch it, that whole response is Martian. It's hot, it's red, it's itchy, it's inflamed, it's irritated. That's what Mars is like medically. It's like it inflames and irritates and it breaks things down, destroys. It's inflammation and oxidation, right? Is Mars.
John Gallagher:
Yeah.
Sajah Popham:
But when you take nettles internally, it cools everything down. It cools down heat, it cools down irritation. So when you touch it, it's like that inflammatory response you get topically. If there's something like that going on internally, it treats it. So it kind of flips around when you put it into your body. Now, then we see the seeds of nettles, modern usage are used a lot of times as a kidney trophorestorative, but they also have an impact on the adrenal glands. Well, Mars rules the adrenals. The root of nettle is commonly used for the prostate gland. Mars rules the prostate gland.
So there's all these interesting layers of relationship with this plant and the way it influences our organ systems and tissues, even down to when you harvest it. At least here in the Northwest, we typically like to harvest our nettle leaf in early spring, in Aries season, which is the sign ruled by Mars, in early spring. We harvest the roots in the fall, in Scorpio season, which is the sign that governs the reproductive system and is also governed by Mars. So down to the timing of when you harvest the different parts of the plant, we see that nettles correlates to this archetype. And that's the whole thing is this orientation from the alchemical orientation of understanding plants is looking at the wholeness of the herb down from its chemistry, its environment, its morphology, its medicinal actions, its tastes, it's energetics. And seeing, okay, what's the pattern here? What is the thematic element that's present in this plant? And what archetypal force is most dominant in this herb?
And in a similar way that when we're working with constitutions in people, we say, "Oh, this person say predominantly Vata or Pitta or Kapha or whatever it might be." Well, we do the same thing with plants based on the planets. So we say that it corresponds to that planetary archetype. And that planetary archetype kind of weaves through multiple levels of that herb, like I said, from its psychospiritual properties, even all the way down to its chemistry. So it's a little bit of a different approach to understanding herbs. But I really like it because it makes a lot of sense for a lot of remedies when you start to see the pattern. And that, to me, thinking about a plant, it's all a pattern. Everything in nature is based on patterns.
And the closer we get to understanding the core medicinal pattern of the plant, now we're starting to grasp the essence of that herb, like the medicine of that plant, its essence. And that's what we're all concerned with an alchemy is the essence of something, the essence of a person, the essence of a plant, the essence of a mineral. And then how do we draw that essence out and preserve it and extract it into a prepared medicine. So that then it's going to touch the essence of the person and then bring about a deeper level of healing for them.
John Gallagher:
Well, I feel like we started with me here because we're talking about things with adrenals and prostate. So I might as well use this time selfishly. No. But I was wondering if we're diving into with, say, insomnia, which is something else I've dealt with, but also something I think a lot of people deal with these days. Is that connected to that as well? Or can that be a good condition to go from, from an astrological perspective?
Sajah Popham:
Yeah, yeah. A lot of times, people think like a symptom's a symptom. Insomnia is insomnia. So everyone with insomnia should be able to take the same drug or take the same herb. And it's going to fix their insomnia. That's not really true. There's different types of insomnia. Some people can't sleep at night because they're in physical pain. Some people can't sleep at night because they have mental anxiety. Some people can't sleep at night because, ironically enough, they're so exhausted they can't sleep or their mind is racing and looping in all these different directions. There's different types of insomnia. There's different types of constipation. There's different types of headaches. And so in that situation, that's where the astrological piece is very helpful because it allows you to see what's underneath the symptom.
From an astrological perspective, we would say that, in general, the moon tends to govern our sleep. Traditionally, it's correlated to the brain. More modern medical astrology gets a little bit more specific than that. But it is commonly correlated to the brain. Our dreams and our sleep oftentimes are corresponded to the moon. But then the planet Venus is generally associated with our capacity to relax, our ability to just unwind. I mean, in herbalism, a lot of the nervine remedies that calm and sedate the system are governed by Venus because Venus is the great relaxant. So for sleep stuff, that's usually what I would be looking at in someone's chart. And then you're looking at, "Okay. Well, what's the nature of the moon?" If the moon is in a sign, like, say, Gemini. Well, Gemini is a mutable air sign. It's very intellectual. And someone with that kind of placement, they might have trouble sleeping because their mind is racing all over the place, right?
John Gallagher:
Yep.
Sajah Popham:
They just got looping thoughts and they can't calm their mind down, right?
John Gallagher:
Yes.
Sajah Popham:
And that's keeping them up at night. And that—
John Gallagher:
I'm a Gemini.
Sajah Popham:
Oh, okay. Right. So then he—
Tara Ruth:
His moon's a Gemini too.
Sajah Popham:
Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay, interesting. So that right there is an insomnia potential predisposition. I think it's really important to make clear to everyone, I'm not saying if your moon's in Gemini everyone with that's not going to be able to sleep. So that's really important. But what that does is that gives me more information about the nature of their inability to sleep. And that points me in the direction of a particular herb. And in that type of situation, for me, passion flower is number one go-to for that specific indication of insomnia due to looping, wandering, racing thoughts when the mind just cannot shut up. That's where I really like passion flowers.
So that's one of the ways that you get more specific. Whether you use medical astrology or not, I think for all herbalists, this is what we have to do. We can't take a symptom at the surface level. Can't just say, "Oh, I have headaches." And we're like, "Oh, okay. Well, here's the headache herbs." It's like, well, where in the head Is it temporal? Is it occipital? Is it all around? Does pressure make it better? Do you not want to touch it? Is it better with a hot pack? Do you want to put ice on it?" You got to get really detailed in the specificity of what type of headache are we working with? And that's going to get you in the right direction of what herbs specifically are going to be indicated for that person with the headache, right?
Tara Ruth:
Mm-hmm.
Sajah Popham:
Because as holistic herbalists, we don't treat headaches, we don't treat insomnia. We treat people, right?
John Gallagher:
Right.
Sajah Popham:
We treat people with symptoms. It is really easy to overlook. But it's like we got to remember that. We're working with humans. And each person has a very unique way that they express on a physical level, on a psychological and emotional level. And I think a good herbalist knows that and gets custom, gets specific, to treat that person in their own unique way.
John Gallagher:
God, you'd hope any healthcare provider would. But it's so rare these days, especially in Western medicine.
Sajah Popham:
Well, it's not their way of thinking, right?
John Gallagher:
No.
Sajah Popham:
And that's the thing is that there is such a thing as allopathic herbal medicine. Use the willow bark for the headache. Oh, you got joint pain. Take some turmeric. Oh, take some valerian because you can't sleep at night. Let's face it, 90% of the time, that doesn't work. I think when people approach herbs that way, they'll be like, "Oh yeah, I tried. That didn't work. Oh, herbal medicine is bunk. It's not even real. It doesn't work." And it could turn whole people off from the whole thing of herbal medicine. And it's just because they didn't use the right remedy. So we're all raised in this culture of, use this for that, and that's not how herbal medicine's practice. And that doesn't really work that way. It's a totally different way of thinking. Getting out of that allopathic this-for-that mindset and into a more holistic way of thinking, I think, is critical.
John Gallagher:
If you're just starting out like what we do on LearningHerbs in basic first aid or colds and flu, it's a way an entry to start, because start where you're used to, what you know. And then at some point, someone's going to start to, well, listen to a podcast like this. And realize that, "Oh, I have this chronic thing going on. And that's why those herbs aren't working," you know? And you put—
Sajah Popham:
Absolutely. Yeah. I'm glad you said that because I think that's also sometimes maybe where I get a little misunderstood. There's a place for allopathic herbalism. There's a time when you need to get a symptom under control while you're working with a root cause. There's acute situations of, "Yeah, I got a cut." Put plantain on it. Yeah, it's great for that. So I think there's also scales of herbal work where there's home, family, herbal medicine, first aid. Using simple things for simple run-of-the-mill, day-to-day stuff. And then there's the more clinical level of working with more serious conditions, chronic conditions, people with much more complex situations going on. I think that's an important distinction too.
But yeah, there's absolutely a place and a necessity. Yeah, it is good to know that certain herbs are good for certain conditions. And sometimes it's very specific. Yeah, lemon balm is really, really good for hyperthyroid patterns. It's just very specific. So there are areas where that does apply. But then there's some areas where willow bark for headaches sometimes doesn't really work for every headache.
Tara Ruth:
Sajah, I love this holistic perspective you're bringing to approaching root cause and working with people. It's making me think about the holistic perspective you bring to making medicine too, with bringing in spagyric alchemy. I'm curious, perhaps with nettles again or another herb of your choosing, can you walk us through exactly how you think about medicine making from this alchemical spagyric perspective?
Sajah Popham:
Yeah. Yep. Okay. So with spagyrics, like I was saying earlier, they say everything has this triune pattern. They all got sulfur, mercury, and salt. Soul, spirit, and body. And those three principles in a plant have a very physical representation. So the sulfur of a plant they say is like its volatile oil. It's its unique expression of consciousness is the way they kind of describe it. Its its unique essence. In the same way that your soul is different from John's soul is different from my soul. Every human has its own unique, individual soul, just like clove essential oil is very distinctly different from lavender, right?
Tara Ruth:
Just a little bit.
Sajah Popham:
Yeah. But then the mercury of a plant, they say, is its spirit. And that part of the plant is, they say, the alcohol. This is actually where we get the word spirits for alcohol.
John Gallagher:
Oh.
Tara Ruth:
Oh. Uh-huh.
Sajah Popham:
That's the same sound I made when I learned that too, because I always wonder, "Why are alcohol called spirits? I've been to a bar. I've seen people really drunk. It doesn't look that spiritual to me." It comes from alchemy, because if you take any plant in the whole plant kingdom and you drown it in water, you ferment it, it yields ethyl alcohol. Barks, roots, leaves, seeds, your lawn mower clippings, it all yields ethyl alcohol. And the alchemists saw it. They said, "Ah, that's the spirit of the plant kingdom." Alcohol is the universal spirit of the plant kingdom. So—
Tara Ruth:
The spirit of the lawn.
Sajah Popham:
That's right. So there's the universal spirit in the same way that my spirit is, your spirit is, the one spirit that moves through all things that animates and gives life. Yet we all have our unique, individual soul. And so that's one thing I like about alchemical cosmology is it sees the universality of things, the kind of new age, "We're all one," kind of thing, and yet we're all separate and individual and unique.
So then we have the salt, which is the alkaline minerals. So in the spagyric process, we want to separate those three principles in a plant. So if we take lavender, we take our lavender and we generally harvest it at the planetary day and the planetary hour that governs that plant, because in herbalism we harvest plants, but in alchemy, we harvest planets. So it's kind of looking at the spirit of time, the energy of time, flowing through the particular space where you are. And so you gather that herb at that peak influence of that planet. And the first part is you distill off those ...
Okay, so just to preface really quick, there's many different types of spagyric preparations. I'm going to share one of the main preparations that I predominantly work with, which I refer to as a spagyric essence. There's, I wouldn't say controversy, but there's friendly disagreement on what terminology we use in the alchemy world to describe what exactly we're making because there's lots of different types of preparations. So we start distill the essential oil, that's the sulfur of the plant. We take that same plant material and ferment it into a wine. And once that wine fermentation is done, the alcohol is distilled off of that wine. And that is the mercury. So you're actually making your own alcohol from the plant itself, rather than tincturing it in Everclear vodka or something like that.
And then the mark or the spent plant material is incinerated to an ash. And it's ground up and burned and ground and burned and ground over and over and over again until you get this really nice soft white ash, which is then dissolved in water. And that dissolves all the water-soluble minerals. And then those water-soluble minerals are crystallized. And there you have your salt principle. So you have your sulfur, the essential oil, the soul, the distilled alcohol, the mercury, the spirit, and your alkaline mineral salts, the salt or the body. Those three parts of the plant.
And that's the "spao" part of spagyric, to separate. You're separating these parts of the plant. And then they are ageiro, they're recombined back together. And that's what I love about spagyrics is that I think in a lot of modern scientific approach to things is it's just separate, separate, separate, divide, divide, divide. What's the active compound? What's the active constituent? We're looking for that single bullet, the magical bullet in the plant. And we discard the wholeness of the herb, and we don't put it all back together. And alchemy is, yes, we separate, we isolate, but yet we bring it all back together into a holistic form of medicine. And there's some very interesting things that happen when you recombine a spagyric.
I was actually talking with someone, a colleague of mine, out at the International Herb Symposium. His name's Warren ... I don't know how to say his last name correctly ... Kistenbroker, I think. But he ran some chemical analysis on spagyrics where he sent a regular tincture of the herb, he sent a little bit of the crystallized mineral salts, and then he sent the combination of that tincture with the mineral salts to an analytic company. And you got your peaks and valleys of, "Okay, here's all the chemistry in the tincture. Here's all the chemistry in the alkali salts." And then you would think the report on the combined spagyric would just be overlaying them, right? Like, "Oh, you have the minerals with the tincture." That's not the case.
We're talking, this creates new compounds that are not found in the plant. You're literally creating a whole new biochemical profile of that herb. And so you are transforming that plant. You're transforming that medicine into something different. That's the way that it's been discussed in, traditionally, the way spagyrics talks about these forms of medicines. They say you are consciously assisting the evolution of the plant. And therefore, when you ingest that medicine, now the plant is consciously assisting your evolution.
So it's considered evolutionary medicine, which is why I call my work Evolutionary Herbalism, because we're not just trying to ameliorate symptoms. We're literally using the medicinal intelligence of nature in plants to facilitate in ... it sounds really woo-woo ... but in the evolution of our consciousness, which in more simple layman's terms, is just helping us become a better human being. Helping us break through the things that hold us back, that limit us and bind us, and the things that we struggle with in this life that we all have a wound in our heart. We all have things that we go through in this life that we need healing from. That's why I'm such a huge proponent of spagyric medicine because I've seen so many people receive very powerful transformational healing experiences working with these forms of herbal medicine and they're very, very powerful.
John Gallagher:
Gosh.
Sajah Popham:
Yeah.
John Gallagher:
I feel like we literally ... in the future, we're going to have to have you back and talk about your background and how you'll learn this and how people can do this and all, because that's like a whole 'nother episode. But you do have a company that you and Whitney founded, Natura Sophia Spagyrics. Now, that was originally called Organic Unity, if anyone listening has purchased these extracts from you. So yeah, how can people find out more about spagyrics and what you offer?
Sajah Popham:
Yeah. Well, we've got our website over there, NaturaSophiaSpagyrics.com. Good luck spelling that one out. Maybe there'll probably be link in there somewhere. But yeah.
John Gallagher:
Look in the description of the podcast.
Sajah Popham:
There you go.
John Gallagher:
We're going to link it there.
Sajah Popham:
Yeah, perfect. Yeah, we've got some articles on there. You'll learn a little bit more about the spagyrics process, and we've got lots of remedies on there. I think we're about 150-ish single plants, 50-ish plus formulas, and about 30 to 40 different essences of single herbs that we do there.
John Gallagher:
So many questions, because it's like, how do you do that? How do you keep all that going? Ah, I have so many. But one thing I do want to bring up before we ask about where folks can ... what you're doing in your classes and everything is, we do have a free webinar coming up that you and I are doing. It's actually on vitalist herbalism. So I'm just wondering if you could just talk about for a second what that is, because if y'all been loving what you've been hearing, we have some more for you.
Sajah Popham:
Yeah. Well, I mean it's interesting because I think a lot of what I've been talking about is a vitalist approach. To me, vitalism in and of itself is really recognizing that there's intelligence in nature, that there's purpose and consciousness in life. And taking that into herbal medicine, it's saying that in the vitalist approach is that our bodies are intelligent. Our body has an innate self-regulating healing mechanism within it that we want to work with as opposed to against when we're working with herbal medicines. And so to me, vitalism is really at the root of most traditions of herbal medicine from around the world. A really good example of the difference between a vitalist approach and an allopathic approach is a fever. When someone has a fever, allopathic medicine, they're like, "Suppress the fever. The fever's the enemy. Take an aspirin."
A vitalist approach says, "No, that fever is an intelligent response of the vital force within the body responding to a pathogen. Rather than suppressing the fever, we want to support that fever. We want to help the body do what it's trying to do." And that's why in herbalism, we typically give diaphoretics that help move the blood to the surface and open up the pores and what we would call surface-relieving herbs in TCM. We want to help support the body in doing what it's trying to do. And that is really central to the vitalist approach.
So to me, I'm a really big proponent of talking about this because I think there's a lot ... herbal medicine's getting very popular. And I feel like it's important to recognize, as I was saying earlier, that herbal medicine sometimes doesn't work when we work with it and approach it in a use-this-for-that allopathic model. So for me, it's really good for people to have an understanding that there's a different approach and a more holistic way of thinking about people and plants that ultimately gives you a little bit better results and success with your herbal medicine.
John Gallagher:
Right. And so everyone, this webinar that we're doing is called Thinking Beyond the Symptoms. Sajah's going to get more into vitalist herbalism and even deeper into some things he's been talking about here. And you can just go to HerbWebinar.com. It's happening actually on the Equinox on September 21st, 22nd, 2023.
Sajah Popham:
Good time.
John Gallagher:
Yeah. So make sure you go to HerbWebinar.com before that and register. It's free, of course. And I just want to mention also just a testimonial for your spagyric extracts because I've been using them for many, many years. And they're just so amazing. Everyone should just experience just the difference. You're just this magician that's been in my life all these years. I don't know how you do all you do. I mean, even in your life, watching what you do with your school and your company and your family and your land, everything, it's just like, how does he do it? You and Whitney are these amazing, magical people walking the planet.
Sajah Popham:
I've got a time turner, you know?
John Gallagher:
Yeah, you do.
Sajah Popham:
So I can manipulate times. Slow it down.
Tara Ruth:
Oh, that's ... Okay.
Sajah Popham:
It's a neat little productivity trick. No, I'm just kidding.
Tara Ruth:
When you learn enough about astrology, they give you that. That's cool.
John Gallagher:
That's the next webinar.
Sajah Popham:
Time Turning.
Tara Ruth:
Well, Sajah, thank you so much for joining us on HerbMentor Radio. For folks who want to learn more, where can they find more about your work?
Sajah Popham:
Yeah, so we have our educational platform called Evolutionary Herbalism. You can find that one at EvolutionaryHerbalism.com. And we've got a YouTube Channel and Facebook and Instagram. And really focused a lot of energy and time in sharing free education really about herbal medicine and all the stuff we've been talking about today. We really feel that education on these topics and herbalism especially, should be made available to as many people, as you all do too. Making things accessible and free, which I just want to tip my hat to you all because it's really good working together to provide good knowledge and good guidance for people free of charge, which is what we really believe in too. So those are some of the places. And we got our podcast too, which is called—
John Gallagher:
Exactly, I was going to say.
Sajah Popham:
Because I always forget about that one. That one's called The Plant Path. So that could be found on Spotify or—
John Gallagher:
One of the top herbal podcasts on Apple Podcasts on herbal stuff. So please—
Sajah Popham:
Is it? I didn't know that.
John Gallagher:
Yeah.
Sajah Popham:
I don't know how to see the listing, so—
John Gallagher:
Sometimes I look that stuff up. I don't either. I just Google things sometimes. I'm like, "Oh, Sajah, how does he do it?" By being great, that's how you do it. By being great.
Tara Ruth:
Yes. I highly recommend that podcast. Before I went to herb school, it was one of the podcasts, I would ... I just devoured it because I was so hungry for all that amazing knowledge you offer on that platform. So thank you.
Sajah Popham:
Oh, nice. Thank you. Thank you.
John Gallagher:
Thanks so much, Sajah, and say hey to Whitney.
Sajah Popham:
Absolutely, yeah. Thank you all very much for having me on the show. It's really a pleasure and an honor to be here. And just thank you for all the good work that you all do over there.
John Gallagher:
Thank you. Thank you. And Tara, want to take us out with an Herb Note on the podcast?
Tara Ruth:
Oh, yes. Let's do it. Introducing our next Herb Note ...
John Gallagher:
We'll see you, Sajah. Thank you.
Tara Ruth:
Welcome to Herb Notes. I'm Tara Ruth from LearningHerbs. Garlic is the medicine of the people. From its pungent aroma that fills our kitchens to its centuries-old reputation as a medicinal wonder, garlic holds a special place in both culinary and herbalism traditions.
While many people think of garlic only as a tasty addition to their favorite meals, herbalists know that this humble bulb boasts many benefits that extend far beyond its flavor profile.
So let's dive into three key health benefits of garlic...
One, garlic can support immune health. Raw garlic acts as a strong antimicrobial herb that can not only help prevent you from getting sick, but can also help shorten the duration of colds and flu in addition to bolstering the immune system. This powerful herb can also address common cold and flu symptoms. Eating a little raw garlic with honey can ease a sore throat. And this pungent herb can also break up mucus, thinning the mucus so that it becomes easier to expel.
Two, along with supporting immune health, garlic can also support healthy digestion. Cooking with fresh garlic can help address symptoms of stagnant digestion, including gas, bloating, and a heavy feeling in the stomach. This pungent herb can also stimulate the appetite and overall encourages more warmth and movement in the digestive system. The easiest way to enjoy the benefits of garlic is to cook with it. So you can make garlic bread, pesto with garlic, garlic honey, garlic vinegar, or simply add a few cloves of garlic to whatever recipe you're cooking. The world's your oyster.
When incorporating more garlic into your cooking, it's super important to start slow. As Rosalee de la Forêt notes in her garlic plant profile on HerbMentor, garlic has a lot of inulin in it, which is a prebiotic. This means that it can help feed healthy gut flora. And while small amounts of inulin are super helpful for healthy digestion, eating too much garlic, especially roasted garlic, can cause some discomfort and gas in sensitive folks.
Three, garlic is anti-inflammatory. Garlic has strong antioxidant activity, which can help modulate inflammation in the body. As a driver of so many modern chronic health conditions, inflammation is an incredibly important factor to address when supporting overall health and wellness. Incorporating a little more garlic into your food can be one deliciously simple part of a holistic approach to vitality.
So to recap, here are three ways I like to work with garlic. One, I work with garlic to bolster my immune system. Two, I add garlic to my meals to support healthy digestion. And three, I cook with garlic to help modulate inflammation. I do all of this in small culinary amounts to simultaneously make my food taste so good, and to also experience the benefits of garlic.
And just to note, since there are some concerns about garlic thinning the blood, if you are pre- or post-op or you're taking any blood thinners, then please consult with an experienced practitioner before taking garlic. If you want to learn more about garlic's benefits, you can visit HerbNotes.cards to grab a free deck of our top 12 Herb Notes. You'll learn all about common herbs like garlic, yarrow, echinacea, cinnamon, and more. This has been Herb Notes with me, Tara Ruth. Catch you next time.
John Gallagher:
HerbMentor Radio and Herb Notes are 100% sustainably wildcrafted podcasts written, performed, and produced by Tara Ruth and me, John Gallagher. Sound engineering by Zack Frank. Visit HerbMentorRadio.com to subscribe on your favorite podcast app and to find out how you can be part of HerbMentor, which is a website that you must see to believe. HerbMentor Radio is a production of LearningHerbs.com LLC, all rights reserved. Thank you very, very, very much for listening.