Elise Higley:
Yeah, I mean, I think both Jeff and I are ... I mean part of having a business and especially farming is risky business. But I think both of us are kind of risk-takers that way. But I think if you're doing what you love and it is a service to the community and you're doing it with intention of doing the right thing for the planet and for people and the plants, you can't really go wrong.
John Gallagher:
You are listening to HerbMentor Radio by LearningHerbs. I'm John Gallagher.
Tara Ruth:
And I'm Tara Ruth. Today we're chatting with Elise and Jeff Higley of Oshala Farm. Oshala Farm is a certified organic herb farm in southern Oregon that uses regenerative sustainable cultivation practices. The farm is a combination of Elise's passion for herbalism and Jeff's passion for farming, and they tend the fields with their son Will and a dedicated crew. You can learn more about their work @oshalafarm.com.
John Gallagher:
Elise and Jeff, thank you so much for joining us today.
Jeff Higley:
Thanks for having us.
Elise Higley:
It's a pleasure.
John Gallagher:
So many of our listeners are home herbalists who are excited to grow herbs for their kitchen apothecary. So for people who are interested in growing their own herbs, what tips do you have on getting started?
Elise Higley:
Well, I think the first thing I always talk to people about when they want to grow herbs is what herbs do they use most and are in love with? So those are the best ones to have at hand. Sometimes those don't always grow in your area, but at least taking a list of what you like to consume the most, like what's your favorite tea? If you're like a tulsi lover or whatever that is, always having calendula on hand is great for first aid issues. But yeah, I think that's the very first thing is just asking people what they like and then just picking a few herbs that they can kind of have fun with. And don't be afraid to experiment because some people get really nervous about thinking that they don't have a green thumb or whatever it is, and then making mistakes. But it's okay. Plants are pretty forgiving and if it doesn't work out, just try it again.
So we definitely had a lot of experiences that way on our own beginning to farm of just experimenting and just trying it out and seeing some plants work really well for you and then sometimes they don't and it's okay.
John Gallagher:
So Jeff, do you suggest people start with, such as the soil, if I'm going to make a garden, is that something to concentrate on first? Do you think it should go right to the plants and put some plants in what you got just so you can experience stuff or should you think it out and get your soil prepared?
Jeff Higley:
Yeah, I mean, I think generally most soils that we have in the United States will produce crops, will produce good herbs, especially because herbs are more resilient than a lot of vegetables or more fickle agricultural crops a lot of times. So I think getting started, getting some stuff in the ground is always a good idea. I always like to tend to tell people start with what's going to grow well in your area. We get so often people are reaching out, frustrated because they can't grow a turmeric in Minnesota. Well, it's a tropical crop it's not an easy thing to do. So maybe start with something that you know is going to grow well, have some easy wins. Something to build off of.
Elise Higley:
Jeff always likes to say when we're doing the farm tours is look around what's outside in your garden already or in the grass like, you have some plantain growing or yarrow or dandelions. It's like, well, that's already growing, so you probably have a pretty good chance that you can do it too.
Tara Ruth:
I love that. And I love what you were saying, Elise, about asking yourself, what do I like to grow? And then Jeff bringing in what likes to grow here and then marrying those two likes to have a successful garden. It's beautiful.
John Gallagher:
Or even just harvest the plantain. I mean, it's in your logo of your company plantain, which is probably growing in most places.
Elise Higley:
Yeah.
John Gallagher:
Well, why did you put the plantain to start? Why I mentioned it in the logo when that's the plant that a lot of people are like, this is a weed.
Elise Higley:
Yeah. I mean, I think part of the reason of using plantain in the logo is just to signify the power that a common weed can have, such as plantain, and that sometimes it's really understated and we just don't really realize the almighty power of these little plants. So there's partly that and just simplicity of just what grows around us, just honoring that, that it doesn't have to be something really sexy and exotic, it can just be happy plantain.
Jeff Higley:
A good workhorse herb.
Elise Higley:
Yeah.
Tara Ruth:
Absolutely. At LearningHerbs, we have a dandelion in our logo, so it's fun to be with a fellow...
John Gallagher:
Weed eater.
Jeff Higley:
Yeah. We've used that at other logos in the past.
Elise Higley:
Yeah, it's a good one-
Jeff Higley:
Dandelion's a good one. Yeah.
Tara Ruth:
Another question I have is for folks who maybe they've gotten a little more experience under their belt, they're feeling like they have a green thumb and they're interested in scaling up and starting an herb farm. What advice do you have for folks who want to start an herb farm?
Jeff Higley:
Well, I think I could take some of that. I mean, I think again, starting with reaching out to maybe some potential buyers and looking at what other people would be interested in buying, whether that's direct to consumer through your local farmer's market or your own group of herbalists in the neighborhood, or looking up to scale up to where you're actually growing for some small product makers or large product makers even, and distributors. First reaching out and seeing what the needs are. There's nothing like going through a whole bunch of work and putting a whole bunch of money into something and growing something you think that people want, to only realize that there's not really a demand for it.
John Gallagher:
Yeah. It's like you plant a gigantic field of echinacea, then you're like, wait-
Jeff Higley:
Nobody wants this? This is great stuff. And it probably is, but they may have already found their supplier for that.
John Gallagher:
Have you guys done that? I'm sensing there might be a story where like, oh my gosh, I love this herb and people want it. Then you grow it and it's like, where's the market? Or do you do the market research first?
Elise Higley:
I wish we had an in with Dr. Oz so we could know what was the hot next herb. Yeah, no, I mean there's definitely stories to tell on that, but I also just want to say for me, starting off, the very first thing which we do know firsthand is just testing the soil if you're going to be selling in commerce and even for yourself because so much of, especially farmland in the US and really all over the world is dealing with a toxic legacy and with organic vegetables, they don't necessarily test that. But in the herbal world in commerce, a lot of companies do and with good reason because this is medicinal herbs, so you would not want to be...
Jeff Higley:
And specifically testing for pesticides and pesticide residue and heavy metals in those soils.
Elise Higley:
Yeah, so we actually had to find ... we searched a few different places before we could find land that was clean enough that passed all the tests with flying colors that didn't have any toxic legacy, which was great. But that would be my first thing to tell people if they're starting is just make sure you know your soil for that.
John Gallagher:
Do people ever come up to you and ask, Hey, I live in a suburban area, or I have a small piece of land, or I can lease some farmland from somebody and then ask if they can start that way if they're wanting to scale up?
Jeff Higley:
I mean, that's kind of how I started. We started in the suburbs, and of course I was growing vegetables, but I got a whole bunch of people who had yards that they weren't using to turn over into vegetable growing. Now, I think if you live in a more rural area, there's a lot of those opportunities around where you don't necessarily need to own land, a lot of people are looking for people to take care of land. So there's a lot of opportunities like that. But I think the biggie is try to find the best soil and the best water you can find. Not only cleanliness, but also just quality of the source and the quality of the soil. So I think those are really important factors. A lot of people, especially when they're starting out, end up in suboptimal soils, and that's pretty normal. We all go through that process, but there's nothing wrong with knowing what good farmland looks like and looking for it.
Tara Ruth:
Hearing you talk about this, at least this legacy of toxicity in the soil, it's making me think about how Oshala Farm is building this legacy that's the antithesis of that. You're building your soil through regenerative farming practices. And I'm wondering for folks who aren't really familiar with regenerative farming, can you talk a little bit about the principles of regenerative farming and how people can bring that into their own, whether it's their garden or they're starting a little herb farm?
Elise Higley:
Yeah, I mean, I think that definitely regenerative agriculture is a buzzword right now, and it is confusing, just like sustainable farming, what is that exactly? But really what our end goal at our farm and farms that are trying to farm with regenerative practices and sustainable practices is having the least impact we can on the soil itself and having the land be able to regenerate as much as it can on its own. But that is definitely hard because farming is an extractive industry. We're pulling nutrients from the ground by growing plants and harvesting them. So it's a fine balance because we want to have healthy plants. We want to be able to get the yield that we need to be able to financially sustain a farm as well. So some of the practices that you can bring in on a farm scale or at a home scale is just disrupting the soil as little as possible.
And in a home scale, that's pretty easy because you can use a lot of hand tools and you can be mulching with straw or wood chips, and not having to till is important. At a larger scale, it becomes a lot more difficult depending on what crops you have. If you're only growing one crop, that's one thing. Or if it's a perennial crop, half of our farm fields are perennial crops, which means that we don't really have to disrupt the soil very often at all because those plants are staying in the ground for years at a time, which is wonderful and beautiful. But for annual crop production, it is challenging not being able to work up the soil and be having, especially when you're harvesting, everything needs to be true to type. You can't have blue vervain in the yarrow field, and then somebody gets a bag of yarrow that has blue vervain in it. So we're having to really be actively in the fields all the time.
But there are different ways of being able to just be kind to the planet and look at the inputs you're putting in or not having to put in to the land, leaving areas where you don't plant for a while. It's leaving fallow, which is not in production, but has a cover crop so that the earth can regenerate itself without having to be amended, bringing outside amendments in. Planting for pollinators and planting for animal life and all of those things that we incorporate. Having diversity in your garden or on a farm, not planting just the same plant or plant family. Are there more things you can add to Jeff? Anything that comes to mind?
Jeff Higley:
Yeah, crop rotation, I think you hit a lot of it. Keeping cover cropping strategies. So we're keeping soils from being not covered, especially over the course of the winter or during certain seasons where we're having a lot of wind or water erosion, not farming on hillsides, things like that. So there's a wide variety of techniques we use to really try to do our best to improve the quality of the soil over time. We know historically that agriculture is damaging the soil, so we're finding more and more ways to improve the organic matter of our soil, and that's a big part of it, increasing organic matter, increasing nutrient holding capacity, soil water holding capacity, and then like Elise said, working with nature and the natural system. So we're working with the bugs and the birds and the animals that coexist with us here at Oshala Farm rather than fighting against them, which is much more of a modern, what they call conventional agricultural system where we look at all of those as something to battle versus how do we use those systems.
John Gallagher:
So it's interesting because in LearningHerbs, when we teach people about using herbs, it's just like you would with good food for nourishment, for healing, diversity in your diet, dealing with toxins, things like that. And really it's the same thought process, whether it's ... you know right? I mean if we're using herbs for our body or how we are building the soil and treating the earth that we grow the herbs in. I know that's probably really obvious to you because you're in that, but for a lot of people listening, like you said, Jeff, the fighting, people are used to fighting the pests in a farm like they would be fighting a disease.
Jeff Higley:
Allopathic mindset, right?
John Gallagher:
Exactly. So is there something about that, was that sort of thinking, I don't know, maybe a reason, a why that you went into this work?
Elise Higley:
I mean, definitely it's interesting coming back to what you're saying about the analogy of human health and plant health and the soil and what they eat. I mean, it is so clear that as humans, you don't get to see, or sometimes you can because you just drop down with too much caffeine or drop up, you see people really like, wow, it's really can see a difference, but bad and maybe unhealthy eating habits. Sometimes people don't seem unhealthy for so long, but with plants, you really can see right away when the soil is not doing great because they're just not able to uptake the nutrients that they need. And then plants in a different area of the field or something, you can see something's going on and it's pretty quick. It's very apparent because plants grow so quickly. So I always realized that as a tool of when I'm actually ingesting food myself, it's like food is definitely your medicine, just like the soil is a medicine for the plants and their structure and their health and all of that. So yeah, it's a beautiful correlation.
But for us, we really started growing herbs because we wanted to be able to supply herbs for our own tea blends that we were making. And as we were looking at different sources and thinking that people ... wanting to get directly from farms and realizing that a lot of places were distributors, and then in researching that, realizing over 90% of the herbs in the US are imported, we were like, geez, how do we make a difference in this? These herbs can't be that difficult to grow. So that was the exploration and the road that kind of led us to becoming full-time herb farmers was because Jeff was already growing vegetables and we were trying to grow these tea blends that we wanted to have a connection with who was growing them.
And just as that as our ability to grow and finding HerbMentors like Mark Wheeler at Pacific Botanicals and people that were willing to share their knowledge and also grow their suppliers, we were able to just learn along the way. So it's been mostly, it was just a tool of trying to get really great quality herbs and we couldn't find what we were looking for, so we just did it ourselves. And that's been really fun to hear recipients now of the herbs are just so happy to see the quality that they would have been able to grow themselves, if not better. So that's our main goal, is just getting the best quality herbs to people so that the medicine that they make really does make a difference.
Tara Ruth:
I love hearing that background where you two had a genuine need, there was a problem. You're like, I want higher quality herbs. What am I going to do about it? And you both decided to do something about it and then help other folks as well. And when I first purchased herbs from Oshala, it was amazing because I got this package in the mail and I opened up the oat straw and the mugwort and the plantain, and I'd never seen herbs that were dried that were that colorful and smelled so much. I could smell the herbs while the box was closed.
Elise Higley:
Nice.
Tara Ruth:
Yeah, it was really magical.
John Gallagher:
That's the good test.
Tara Ruth:
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm so grateful for y'all and in my own search for finding really high quality herbs, and I was looking for small scale farms to order from. I felt like it was hard for me to find small scale herb farms, and maybe it's just a perception I have, maybe it was just a marketing thing, but are there a lot of small scale herb farms out there? I don't know. Or are there big obstacles that small to medium organic herb farms are facing?
Jeff Higley:
Yeah, there's really not a lot of herb farms in the United States in general of any scale. There are a lot of barriers to entry. One is knowledge, two is I think ideally you have to be certified organic and you have to have commercial drying capacity. And those are fairly costly starts. They're not impossible by any standard, but a lot of people start looking down the road of what it takes to really grow herbs for the industry and they're like, oh man, that's maybe more than I want to get into. But I think herbs are needed, and especially domestically grown herbs are needed. So it'd be nice to see more people do it, but yeah, still to this day, the majority is coming from out of the country.
Tara Ruth:
I'm curious too, with climate change affecting so many farmers' work, have you felt the impacts of climate change affecting your work as herb farmers? And if so, how do y'all manage this as land stewards and business owners?
Elise Higley:
That's a whole other thing. Yeah, I mean, definitely like everybody, but especially people like ourselves and all of our crew who work outside in a smoky wildfire day that we're having for the first of the season, climate change is definitely happening out here in the field. But the beautiful thing is the plants actually seem to be more resilient than the humans. They're doing okay with it all. We're just trying to catch up with them. But sometimes there's less yields because of either too much sun or too little or too much rain, it's either too much or too little of everything. It's all the extremes that make it difficult, too hot, too cold at wonky times.
Jeff Higley:
I mean, we're seeing a lot of farmers, luckily not us, but a lot of our farming friends not have water or dealing with actual fire losses. I mean, we've been in a lot of close proximity and dealing with a lot of smoke and a lot of heat, but there's definitely people that have been dealing with a lot more disasters, and we feel that in our community. So it's an ever present reality. But we also grow a lot of herbs so we're growing 85 crops this year, and you never really know what season you're going to get. It was a really cold, wet spring, and now we're in a nice heat wave. So different plants respond differently to different seasons, and that's one of the benefits of growing a lot of diversity is not only do we have a lot of different plant types and we don't have all the same bugs and pests affecting just one or two crops, but some years some crops do better than others, and we can kind of balance out the risk on the farm by having more diversity that way.
John Gallagher:
Hello, Tara.
Tara Ruth:
Hello, John.
John Gallagher:
This is fascinating. I think that I know myself included, I'm guessing you Tara as well, but I can't think of someone who probably gets into herbs without thinking to themselves, is this something that maybe I can do? Can I offer this to the world and share and start to farm more products? And it is so inspiring to see someone who's put it all together. I mean, they're even offering classes, they're doing education as well.
Tara Ruth:
Right? Yeah. I feel like when I started learning about the plants, I was like, wait, how do I do this all the time?
John Gallagher:
Yeah. And they have figured out together with their partnership on how to bring their skills, Jeff as a farmer, and Elise as a herbalist together and make this unique entity that is ... I guess Kimberly and I did that with LearningHerbs, but to me, it's like next level or more than next level when you're doing it in real life with people coming in a farm and learning everything.
Tara Ruth:
Yeah, totally. All the elements, who knows what kind of fires or storms or whatever it may be, you have to produce these plants.
John Gallagher:
And Oregon is such a magical herbal state. I want to say that it seems like most herbal things per capita happen in Oregon. You have Herb Pharm, Mountain Rose Herbs, a lot of teachers, a lot of schools. It is incredible. And so it's worth a little trip, I think, to visit these farms and these places to be inspired. Sharol Tilgner, her herbal event outside of Eugene in 2006 or something, or whatever it was, or seven. It was inspiring 'cause she also had this, she grew the herbs that she made into her medicine and she taught and made products, and she's an ND as well, and she was so gracious in letting me come and film the very first HerbMentor videos.
Tara Ruth:
Whoa, oh.
John Gallagher:
Yeah. And I recorded audio for ... I met the herbalists that would be part of HerbMentor, and it was just ... yeah, I just have nothing. It seems like you got to go to Oregon to...
Tara Ruth:
You got to do it.
John Gallagher:
You got to go. And speaking of HerbMentor, we have of course a great course on growing herbs. So if you want to start out at the home level, maybe you could talk a little bit about Cultivating Wellness, Tara.
Tara Ruth:
So Cultivating Wellness is your how-to guide, your basic course on growing healing herbs in your own garden. It's by Sue Kusch, and she walks you through just step-by-step basic lessons on how to design and build your garden, how to plan your garden, what herbs to grow, and so many other different lessons, how to harvest your plants. It's a really great guide if you're just wanting to get started or if you do have a little experience, but you just want to sharpen your tools.
John Gallagher:
And you can plan your garden. And we tell you the 13 herbs that you can start with that it's easy to grow anywhere and all you have to do is, well, you can get a listener discount at herbmentorradio.com, I believe.
Tara Ruth:
Well, yes you can.
John Gallagher:
Yes, you can. And subscribe to the podcast there.
Tara Ruth:
How convenient.
John Gallagher:
How convenient. So this message brought to you by HerbMentor and the Oregon Herbal Tourist Board.
Tara Ruth:
Incredible.
John Gallagher:
Back to Jeff and Elise.
Tara Ruth:
Yes.
John Gallagher:
How do you know what to grow? Because you're a business, I know that Elise is probably like, I would love to grow ... these are my favorite herbs, I want to grow just these ones. But then you see there's a demand for all of a sudden maybe something's in the news or there's ... do you go with the steady, reliable ones that people always seem to order, or do you have to experiment a lot, or is there a percentage that like, oh, this much we kind of play with, but this, we're always growing, that kind of thing?
Elise Higley:
So it's pretty complex because well, one is we have no idea, and if you have a clue to tell us how to know what's going to be the next popular herb, please let us know. But a lot of herbs take a year or two to even harvest. So that's one thing is it takes time. So by the time something has all of a sudden there's a pandemic and certain herbs are in hot demand and you wish you would've known a year or two ago, but mostly we also look at what we can handle staff-wise. So there's only so many of us. There's just about 25 people on Oshala Farm team. And so we also have to think about how much can we do at once?
We could probably sell all the calendula we could grow, but we don't want to only have calendula on our farm, and we only have so many hands that can pick, so we can only plant so many, and we plant in successions in different fields, so they're all not coming on at the same time because we can't possibly pick them all at that same time. So there's those barriers too, and there's just so much drying capacity at a time. So, a lot of it is this amazing mathematical equation and-
John Gallagher:
Which one of you are good at spreadsheets?
Elise Higley:
Yeah, Jeff, Jeff is a spreadsheet king. So that is pretty interesting. And then also not having plants in the same field or plant families, that's always rotating. So that also like, oh, we can't plant this in that area 'cause we just planted that or whatever. But there are the good ... and we never want to take anything out. We go, this is crazy, who plants almost 90 different varieties at a commercial scale? This is crazy. We're not doing this. And then someone ends up teary to take out some plant that we didn't want to take out, and then... Like sorry, no more bugleweed this year. And then of course we got a purchase order for bugleweed, and it's like, okay, fine. We're planting bugleweed again.
John Gallagher:
Okay. Wow.
Elise Higley:
It's funny.
John Gallagher:
Look, it's not a lot of people, I mean you, just to make it clear that everyone understands, you are selling a lot of bulk herbs on your site and all those herbs are coming from your own farm. You're not a company that's buying from other places, you're a hundred percent, and that's must be rare. I can't think of ... I remember that some people did, but I can't think any more that are still around.
Elise Higley:
Yeah.
John Gallagher:
Yeah, that's hard.
Elise Higley:
Which it's great because we have a connection with all those plants, we grew them ourselves, but it does take somebody dedicated to support the farm because we're not a one-stop shop. You're not going to get cinnamon and cardamom or something that you may want at the same time, but hopefully all the herbs you see on the list can get you somewhere with what you're working for.
Tara Ruth:
In addition to growing all of these beautiful herbs, you also have an herbal products line, and I'm not quite sure how you managed to do all of these things at the same time. It's amazing. But what advice do you have for folks who are interested in starting an herbal products business?
Elise Higley:
Well, I guess the biggest thing is formulating and coming up with products is so much fun. And I think that a lot of us as herbalists, that's just like one of our joys is coming up with different recipes and formulations. But I think one of the major things to think about is the sustainability of what you're formulating. So if you're using rhodiola, it's like, well, where are you going to get that from and where is it coming from? Who's growing it? Are you going to have consistent supply? Because it is true if you're selling products for the most part, you want to have consistency. It's hard when you run out of something. So I think there's that part, and that's kind of what led us into farming because we wanted to have a consistent supply of beautiful herbs at a quality that we weren't willing to do anything less than what we felt really good about sending out.
So I think there's that part of it and just enjoying what you do get products that, again, I work so much that luckily I love what I do, so it doesn't bother me that we're working 50, 60 hours a week because we love it so it's good. But product making can be complicated and there's all the lot numbers and all the paperwork and all the things you need to do that is part of being a legitimate business. So there's that side of it as well. But yeah, I think having good quality product, having products that you love and enjoy yourself so you're genuinely able to sell what you love and are proud of is key to success.
John Gallagher:
And they're beautiful. I'm on Oshala Farm right now just looking at, gosh, the elixirs and the oils look like the most beautiful oils and the packaging, everything is just incredible.
Elise Higley:
Thank you.
Jeff Higley:
Thanks, yeah. Elise works really hard on that part of all the marketing side, and I think that's part of what the reality check of, whether you're a farmer or a herbal product maker or whatever is a lot of us get into this because we love growing plants or we love making products, and there's a lot to running a business outside of the agronomy or the product making. And I think having that kind of expectation, having a plan for that, and you don't have to do it all. It's not just Elise and I, we have a team of incredible people that work with us now. But taking all that stuff on, that's really where the success comes is being able to balance that.
John Gallagher:
People will talk to me about business or ask questions about it, and they will see the LearningHerbs that's present, but it's been around for 20 years, and that can intimidate people from starting. And all the things you're talking about from the farming to the remedy making, what advice do you give people that may have this passion for sharing herbs and doing farming or product making in getting started? Because doesn't it seem like it can just seem overwhelming if you're just looking at someone who's been doing it for a while?
Elise Higley:
Yeah, I mean, I think both Jeff and I are ... part of having a business, and especially farming is risky business, but I think both of us are kind of risk-takers that way. But I think if you're doing what you love and it is a service to the community and you're doing it with intention of doing the right thing for the planet and for people and the plants, you can't really go wrong. And if you're willing to work really hard, I mean, that's the other thing, being a business owner, there's not many people I know that are 30 hour a week business owners just so you better love what you do, or it just might be a different business.
So we didn't come up, we didn't have necessarily, Jeff and I didn't sit down and think one day, let's have this big farm and do all these plants. It just happened. We needed good quality plants. We were making teas, we had farming, we could do it. We found a piece of land. Just a lot of hard work and risks and willing to invest and finding the right people came and it just kind of happened organically that way.
Jeff Higley:
I think one of the things people tend to do, and we did it too, is we would go to Pacific Botanicals or Herb Farm down the road and be like, wow, we're never going to be anything anywhere like this. And we had this plan for a little tiny farm and some education, and you don't need to know what you want to do, like the final product. You just need to know what you want to do right now and start down that path. I think a lot of people get overwhelmed when they look at all the parts. And I think even for us, I don't know if we'd be doing this if we knew everything that was involved. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.
I'm just going to jump this next hurdle. I'm just going to get past this one roadblock. And sure, you need to have that overall plan, but it's going to evolve as time goes on. You're going to continue to grow. The plan is going to continue to grow and evolve, and that's normal. Just start small, start with what you know, where you're comfortable, and then just take on that next hurdle and you'll get down the road.
John Gallagher:
Because I want to inspire people to do this. Here we're just like, come on everyone let's teach people about herbs, let's grow herbs, let's make products. So yeah, thank you for sharing that.
Tara Ruth:
And hearing y'all talk about the resilience of the plants and also just the adaptability that y'all have had as business owners. I'm thinking about how for folks who are maybe going to become herb farmers, how we can ensure the resilience and longevity of Herb farms. I know there's all these obstacles, but I'm curious, do y'all have ideas about how we could ensure that resilience for maybe new herb farmers or folks who have already gotten a start but are finding it really hard because of all these obstacles?
Elise Higley:
The first thing that comes to mind is if we want to see more herb farmers in whatever country you're in, but we're talking about the US right now, then you need to support them. So you need to buy from them. And that's the biggest thing. Just like small product makers, it's like if you love what they do, support them, and it can't just be once every six months or whatever. It's got to be consistent because everybody's bills are consistent. So I would just say that as consumers and herbalists and product makers by supporting domestic farms, you are making a big difference. And I also feel like it's just like it's a food security issue we saw with COVID, it's like all the supply chain stopped. It's like if we don't have herbs growing in the US or whatever country you're in, you need to have that. We need to have our medicine chest close to us. So I do think that's important to support farms that are in your area. So there's that part of what we can do to support. But then do you want to talk about the other part, Jeff?
Jeff Higley:
Yeah, I mean, I think I kind of said it a couple of times earlier, but start with some easy wins. Start with things that you know can grow or that grow well in your area, you know that you can sell, start with the top 20 selling herbs in the country. Don't start with something super esoteric. Not that that couldn't be your most profitable crop, but you may only be able to sell five pounds of it and five pounds does not support an herb farm. So start with that.
And then even when we start a new crop, somebody calls us up and says, Hey, we want you to grow something we haven't been growing. Our response is even if we feel really confident, we'd like to trial that. And usually that is we're going to grow a row, or we're going to grow a 10th of an acre, or we're going to grow some small amount that is enough to really grow the crop, see how it does, see how it does with our systems, but isn't so much that the farm's betting on it and also not in a spot where that customer really depends on us showing up.
And then we can come back and like, okay, well this is what it takes for us to grow it out at Oshala. This is what our yield data is. This is when we know we're going to expect to harvest it. This is how we know we're going to dry it. So fail early, fail often, but fail in sizes that you can afford to fail in. Don't put five acres of something you've never grown out there and put your whole livelihood on it. Start with something that's manageable and maybe that's still working side jobs, both Elise and I were working part-time jobs or even full-time jobs on the side, and we were still growing vegetables, and Elise was going to six farmers markets a week, slinging veggies in our 1964 Chevy truck every morning at 4:30 AM she'd load up, while we were trying to build a client base as herb farmers.
So just don't necessarily ... put everything in, put a hundred percent, but don't give up everything else while you're waiting. It's going to take a little longer than you maybe hope. But at the end of the day, I think there's a lot of demand. There's a lot of desire. We're not competing against other North American farmers. We're competing against India and China, and Northern Africa and Eastern Europe, that's where 90% of the herbs are coming from. At the end of the day, we're not competing against the Pacific Botanicals or the Foster Farms or the Zach Woods or any of the herb farms in this country. There's just not enough volume being created. So the problem is we're competing against labor where they're sometimes paying people per day or per week, what we're paying people per hour. And that's the challenge. We're handpicking flowers, we're doing things that are super labor-intensive. So how do we create those opportunities that work for where you are and what you're doing, but also can still compete?
John Gallagher:
Wow, that's a lot to think about.
Elise Higley:
Welcome to our world.
Jeff Higley:
But going back to that, so I think I just wanted to close that with don't be overwhelmed. There is a lot of opportunity for herb farms in the United States, and I think there's a lot that you could do to be profitable and successful, but just be smart about it.
John Gallagher:
Do farms like yours or the few farms that are out there, they have apprenticeships, internships, where people might learn first if they want to do this, let alone how to do this?
Elise Higley:
Yeah, I mean, there are internships. Herb Pharm has an internship program in Williams, Oregon. We usually tend to just hire people and have them work, and we have had a crew member or two go off and start their own smaller scale or their own business. But usually once they end up seeing all the different parts of what the farm is, they're like, I just really like farming. I'd rather just be on the field with the plants and not have to deal with the business end of things. So that is a lot of people just staying out with the plants that are really wanting to farm. There is a whole other part of running a business, which is not always fun.
Tara Ruth:
Elise in addition to co-running Oshala Farm, you're also on the American Herbal Products Association Board. And I'm curious what inspired you to join the board?
Elise Higley:
Yeah, I mean, first of all, it was and is such an honor to be on the board for AHPA, and I'm still kind of in shock that I'm ... I'm in the meetings and I'm like, I can't believe I'm in here with all these amazing kick ass herbal people. But it's great. And mostly, I mean, the reason I really wanted to be on the board was because I wanted to have a farmer's voice heard. There's a lot of bigger scale manufacturing companies and all these people are using herbs, but yet no one was talking about really where the herbs were coming from, who was growing them and how they were being grown. It was more just almost like commodity talk. And I was just like, Hey, hey, hey, is anybody asking the farmers about this? And it just seemed like AHPA and the people that were there actually were really excited to hear what was happening on the farming end of it, and were just really welcoming to that voice.
So yeah, I feel like it's just really amazing to be part of these conversations. And also really important. As much as I don't necessarily like being involved with politics and political groups, but it's like that's where we're going to see the change. If we're not at the table having these conversations, we can't just complain about it. So it's great. It's been really interesting going to these meetings and hearing and having input. And we're working right now on a farmer panel from farmers from, one farmer from India and Mexico, and then three farmers from the US that will be presenting at SupplySide West, which I think will be the first time in I don't even know how long that farmers are actually speaking about how the industry can help support farms. So yeah, it's been great. It's been really exciting, and I really encourage people to look into AHPA, American Herbal Products Association because they do a lot of policymaking and a lot of support for the herbal product industry.
John Gallagher:
Yeah, I was wondering if the association was taking into consideration the small farms and seeing what they can do to encourage purchasing from more ... I don't know, thinking maybe some kind of program where they can purchase more from smaller farms or...
Elise Higley:
Yeah. And I think it's important too, for farmers to understand product makers needs. We were kind of talking about that, having relationships and being able to communicate with your buyer. For us, it's really important if we're going to grow on contract for somebody, we want to really know what that person wants in the end, because after we harvest it and dry it's too late. So did they want the plant in full flower, in partial flower? There's all these other ... how did they want it processed? And all of those things that need to happen before you even grow and decide if that's something you can actually supply.
So I think farmers need to understand too, that for product makers, there's certain specifications they need to pass, and maybe they need to have third party testing or they have to have certain constituents or whatever it is. It's important to have those conversations. So I think it's great to have farmers be in the same room with product makers if they're not already doing the same thing so that they know about each other's needs and how they can help support each other.
Jeff Higley:
There's also a lot of committees within AHPA, the sustainability committee, the small business committee, there's a lot of groups within AHPA itself that are looking at a lot of these challenges. Supply chain being the overarching, but how are we more sustainable and how do we support more domestic production is a common conversation. But I think going off what Elise said, anyone who is looking to start an herbal product business or be involved in herbal product industry, I think there's a real benefit of being involved in the American Herbal Products Association and just in the networking and the education you get from being around the industry and the people that are working in it day to day, it's a lot of information that you get to glean. So it's been really beneficial for us.
Tara Ruth:
Great. Well, another way that y'all welcome people into learning more about the herbs is through events on the farm. Could y'all talk a little bit about what kind of events you host at Oshala Farm?
Elise Higley:
Yeah. Well, I mean, partly what we had talked about before is we do feel like having a relationship with who grows your herbs is super important, and knowing how your herbs are being grown and just having that connection and relationship because that in the end will make the best medicine possible for people consuming the herbs. So we do farm tours once a month. They're open to the public, and we also always welcome our customers, like if you're in the area and you can't make the farm tour, we always try and make time to show people the farm, but we also host a couple events where people can camp out. Well, actually one event in general is our annual herb camp where people come and actually stay on the farm for a weekend, and they get to camp out in the fields and make medicine with fresh plant medicine making.
And we do distillations and we do plant walks and all kinds of different classes like right out on the field, farming classes. Jeff does farming classes. So yeah, all kinds of just a full packed weekend out in the fields with the plants, and it's really amazing. There's usually about a hundred or so people that come and it's just a wonderful time. I mean, it's a lot of work for us as a farm because we're a full production farm. We're not just like an event center, but for the most part, everyone who signs up is there to be on the farm. So they're just amazing folks that come and we have a great time and play music and make real root beer with the Glen Nagels roasting roots and Chicory and dandelion on the grill and making root beer. And it's just so fun. We have a really great time. We get crazy and serious, and it's a well blended weekend.
John Gallagher:
Gosh, I'm looking at it here. Everybody go to the Oshala Farm Herb Camp. This is all you need. I'm just saying, because the first herbal event was always confusing to me in herbalism. I always loved the plants and I learned about the plants, and I'd go identify them and all, but early on, maybe in the early nineties, I got some books and I couldn't make that transition from the book to the actual remedy. And I was lucky to have a Northwest Herbal Fair near me back in the late nineties, and it was at that event, casual out in the field, people are harvesting and making tinctures and showing how to decant and all these hands-on things with the community, and there's nothing to jumpstart and make you feel like a confident home herbalist than doing something just like your herb camp. So I just want to say that if you can-
Elise Higley:
Well, we hope to see you here someday, John.
John Gallagher:
Yeah. Oh yeah, man. And it's in Grants Pass. So can you tell folks where that is in geography?
Elise Higley:
Yeah. So it's actually, we live in the country, so Grants Pass is our mailing address, but we really live in Applegate, which doesn't have a zip code, so that's why it's Grants Pass. But it's in southern Oregon, so we're in between Grants Pass and Ashland if people know that area. And we're just over the border from California, only about seven miles actually. But as a bird flies, not as a car drives.
John Gallagher:
Not as a car drives, right?
Elise Higley:
Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's in the beautiful southern Oregon Applegate Valley, and we're filled with a lot of other agricultural farms and the wine industry and Herb Pharm, Pacific Botanicals, Strictly Medicinals. We're all kind of in that little mecca here, so yeah.
John Gallagher:
So do you ever talk about starting like ... you know how there's a winery area or a cidery? In our area we have three ciderys. Is there ... I mean, maybe there is and I just haven't heard about it, but is there some sort of Herbal Valley going on where you have these companies where people can tour and take classes and try things?
Elise Higley:
Yeah, well, we do. There are quite a few different schools that come and come to the farms as a weekend event, so they'll go visit those different farms and us, and yeah, so it's fun. And we have a lavender festival in July as well. So yeah, it's a pretty cool spot to be. I'm actually thinking about next year for Herb Camp on the Friday before to do a United Plant Savers fundraiser and do one of those things where we go to all those different farms and get to actually maybe tour some of the Herb Pharm Lab and the farm itself and things like that, and have that be a separate kind of event, but like an add-on to be a United Plant Savers fundraiser.
John Gallagher:
And there's all kinds of classes. You have botanical ink making, distillation aromatherapy stuff. And just so much.
Elise Higley:
Yeah, this weekend, so Erica's here this weekend. Erika Galentin from Sovereignty Herbs is here doing a sacred ritual distillation workshop, which I am so excited about. We just opened the still up for the first time, the big mama still, and so we're going to be doing hydrosols on the farm because we have an amazing array of fresh plant material, so we can do that kind of stuff. And so yeah, we're going to be doing some helichrysum hydrosol this weekend, which is going to be amazing.
Tara Ruth:
That's going to be divine, wow.
Elise Higley:
I know. I know. Yeah.
Tara Ruth:
Oh my gosh. Well, Elise and Jeff, thank you so much for joining us on HerbMentor Radio. It was just so great.
John Gallagher:
Gosh, this hour goes fast, doesn't it? And I really thank you for doing what you do, and I hope people out there are inspired to not just learn from you and do events like this, but also maybe be inspired to, maybe somebody listening is going to start something like that someday. They're going to start someplace. They're going to start an herb conference or an event, or a farm or a company, and you can do it. We all do.
Elise Higley:
Totally. Yeah, exactly. Thank you for doing the good work you do.
John Gallagher:
Oh, thank you.
Elise Higley:
We appreciate it.
John Gallagher:
Thank you so much.
Tara Ruth:
Oh, and for folks too who do want to get some amazing herbs or who want to go visit your farm, they can find you @oshalafarm.com.
John Gallagher:
Yes.
Elise Higley:
Thank you.
John Gallagher:
Well, Tara.
Tara Ruth:
Well, John.
John Gallagher:
That was another awesome interview.
Tara Ruth:
Another one for the books or the podcasts.
John Gallagher:
For the podcast, I know. I know. Well, and you can read it because we do transcripts on all of these, so you can read along.
Tara Ruth:
We do indeed.
John Gallagher:
You could sing along. Sometimes I mute my audio and I go through and I sing the podcast to myself.
Tara Ruth:
You karaoke it. Wow.
John Gallagher:
To myself.
Tara Ruth:
Cool.
John Gallagher:
Yes, yes. I'm an empty nester these days. I get bored.
Tara Ruth:
You've got a lot of time on your hands.
John Gallagher:
So I know people don't have a lot of time, and you can learn about an amazing herb in just two or three minutes, and I'm going to hand it over to Tara to do that, right?
Tara Ruth:
Yes. Speaking of time and learning about an herb for two or three minutes, it's time for an Herb Note. Let's do it.
Welcome to Herb Notes. I'm Tara Ruth from LearningHerbs. With a name like stinging nettle, you might think you want to avoid a nettle patch at all costs. Sure, the fresh leaves and stems of stinging nettle, Urtica dioica can irritate the skin upon contact. But here's the thing, stinging nettles are also full of many healing gifts. It may seem counterintuitive, but once you learn more about the magic of nettles, I have a feeling you'll be reaching for nettles a whole lot more, even if you are wearing a glove while you do it. So let's dive into three benefits of stinging nettle.
One, nettle can help address seasonal allergies. As a strong anti-inflammatory herb nettle excels it's supporting the body through seasonal allergies. Every year, I start working with nettle leaf in the late fall to prepare myself for the seasonal allergies I often get in the springtime. I've noticed that taking nettles helps dramatically reduce my spring allergy symptoms, including my runny nose, itchy eyes, and sneezing, and I'm not alone. Nettle is well known as an ally for addressing hay fever.
Two, nettle can address general inflammation just as nettle leaves can support the body with inflammatory seasonal allergies, nettle can also help address general inflammation in the body. As an underlying cause of many common diseases, chronic inflammation is an important issue to address holistically and anti-inflammatory Herbs like nettle can be one key part of a holistic approach. I love incorporating nettle into my food, whether it's in a nettle soup, smoothie, or lasagna.
Three, nettle is a nutrient-dense food and tea. In addition to being anti-inflammatory, nettle leaves are also very nutritious and mineral rich, with their rich mineral content, there are many benefits of nettle leaves. They can help strengthen bones, hair, and teeth, and they can also help address muscle cramping caused by mineral deficiencies. To extract nettles nutrients, I like to create a nourishing infusion or long steep tea combined with oat straw, another mineral rich plant that can help balance the astringency of nettle.
So to recap, here are three ways I like to work with nettle leaves. One, I work with nettle to help support my seasonal allergies. Two, I add nettle to my food to help address general inflammation. Three, I enjoy drinking a long steeped mineral rich nettle and oat straw tea. Want to learn more about nettle's benefits? Visit herbnotes.cards to grab a free deck of our top 12 Herb Notes. You'll learn all about common herbs like catnip, yarrow, echinacea, cinnamon, and more. This has been Herb Notes with me, Tara Ruth, catch you next time.
John Gallagher:
HerbMentor Radio and Herb Notes are 100% sustainably wild crafted podcasts. Written, performed, and produced by Tara Ruth and me, John Gallagher. Sound Engineering by Zack Frank. Visit herbmentorradio.com to subscribe on your favorite podcast app and to find out how you can be part of Herb Mentor, which is a website that you must see to believe. Herb Mentor Radio is a production of learningherbs.com, LLC. All rights reserved. Thank you very, very, very much for listening.
