Nadine Joseph: There's a lot of herbal supplement companies out there, and the vast majority of them, honestly, I haven't even met one that sources in the same way that we do. There's some tea companies that do, but not like what we're doing. And what's interesting is most don't believe it's scalable, what we're doing, but it really is. And I'm kind of viewing what I'm doing and maybe my purpose is to prove that this is scalable, it is scalable to work with the earth in this way.
John Gallagher: You are listening to HerbMentor Radio by LearningHerbs. I'm John Gallagher.
Tara Ruth: And I'm Tara Ruth. Today we're chatting with Nadine Joseph. Nadine used to work as a chronically stressed neuroscience researcher, but when she was faced with intense burnout, she turned to herbs and then she eventually founded Peak and Valley, an herbal products business that sells ethically sourced adaptogen blends for skin, brain, and stress support. You can find her incredible products on peakandvalley.co and on Instagram @peakandvalleyco. Nadine, thank you so much for joining us.
John Gallagher: Yes, welcome.
Nadine Joseph: Hello. Thank you for having me.
John Gallagher: So good to have you here. So Nadine, have you heard about the ChatGPT thing you know, everyone's using now and playing around with? It's probably going to take over the internet before it turns into robots and takes over the world.
Nadine Joseph: I sure have.
John Gallagher: So I was thinking, of course, as herbalist, you're probably typing in, "What are the uses or medicinal uses of ashwagandha?" Or some other plant that you might be looking up. And sometimes I found that it wasn't all that accurate, but then I started like, "Well, why don't I write some haiku about herbs?" So I think it's totally great for writing haiku versus researching. But anyway, Tara, we were both talking about this and you've prepared a haiku for us, right Tara? Specifically for Nadine in her adaptogenic work.
Tara Ruth: Yes, I should say the robot has prepared a haiku for us about ashwagandha and mushrooms, which feature a lot in Peak and Valley products. So are y'all ready for this haiku?
John Gallagher: Yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready.
Nadine Joseph: I'm so ready.
Tara Ruth: Amazing. Just let it wash over you. "Ashwagandha roots, mushrooms in an herbal blend. Nature's gift to us." Yes. That was a beautiful haiku that the robot made for us.
John Gallagher: That's beautiful, Robot.
Nadine Joseph: Nature's gift.
Tara Ruth: Absolutely.
John Gallagher: It's true. It's true.
Tara Ruth: Oh my gosh. Well, Nadine, I'm so excited to talk to you. I first reached out to you after hearing an interview with you where you were talking about your journey as an herbalist entrepreneur, which I think for some people can feel almost like an oxymoron. "How do I do this thing that I love as an herbalist and then also be a business person, an entrepreneur?" And I'm always excited when I see people who are really bringing these two parts of themselves together with a lot of passion and beautiful ethics that they're weaving into this business world. And I really see you doing that. So I really want to talk to you and hear your perspective because I think a lot of our listeners who are interested in starting their own herbal products business would be excited to hear your perspective as someone who has national distribution in The Vitamin Shoppe and also some distribution in Whole Foods, and who while achieving all of the success also does a lot of direct sourcing with your herbs to ensure the highest quality for your customers, and then also fair compensation and labor practices for the farmers you partner with. So with all of this in mind, I just wanted to hear why did you start Peak and Valley and what sparked your interest in being an herbalist entrepreneur?
Nadine Joseph: Yeah, I mean, it was definitely a rocky road. I started off in the world of neuroscience research. I was studying at UCSF and UC Berkeley, and was studying plasticity and spinal cord injuries at one lab and stress and how it affects our learning and memorability at another lab. And it was a really hectic time for me. I was working like, oh my gosh, just crazy, 14 to 16 hour days, especially with that Bay Area commute.
Tara Ruth: Oh God, yes.
Nadine Joseph: Yeah. And I really just started feeling the effects of it over time, of the just adrenal fatigue. I had just anxiety, trouble sleeping, just constant fatigue and wanted to find something that could help me that wasn't really pharmaceutical. So delved into PubMed the database of scientific research and wanted to see if I could find something that was herbal in nature that was at the intersection of traditional medicine as well as what science has to say works. And I found out about this rich history of adaptogens in Ayurvedic and Traditional Chinese Medicine, and that was really what sparked it. I wanted to find something that worked for me and found out about these herbs and started using it. And it was just crazy how I noticed such a difference.
John Gallagher: Wow.
Nadine Joseph: I think the really kind of terrible thing about adrenal fatigue is that even after you get back on schedule, like a normal sleeping schedule and your life cools down a bit, you still have those symptoms. And this really helped. I started incorporating reishi and ashwagandha and a few other mushrooms and it really helped. And yeah, I kind of saw how impactful it was and really wanted to find a way to share it with the world, and I just jumped feet first into being an herbal entrepreneur.
John Gallagher: Well, when you started the journey of just, "Hey, I'm starting, I'm an entrepreneur now." Doing this, what's a story of the early days of how you got that business running and then eventually scaling up to national distribution? I think a lot of people, Tara, you may have had this experience too, but for me, when I first started learning, I found myself with all these tinctures and body products and stuff, and something crosses your mind, especially if your first friend tells you, "You should sell these." And then you're like, "How do I do that?" But you actually went and did it. So I'm curious about that journey.
Nadine Joseph: Yeah, it was definitely not a straightforward journey. I started off just making everything in my kitchen, so blending all of the extracts and powders at home and selling them to friends, family members. I had a little online store that I would sell from, got a few orders. And I was mostly sourcing from wholesalers online at that point. I was still very small and hadn't really thought about where the herbs were coming from yet. But I had a fairly, I don't know, conscious I guess, childhood. My mom was a bit of a hippie.
John Gallagher: So was Tara's.
Nadine Joseph: Yeah.
Tara Ruth: Yes. Guilty.
Nadine Joseph: Yes, three cheers for the hippie moms out there. And yeah, she kind of raised me to really question where these things come from and whether or not what you do in this world is in alignment with the earth. And I found that I couldn't really even answer that question with how I was sourcing right then and there, because a lot of these wholesalers, they themselves don't really know where it comes from. So as I grew a little bit bigger, I really wanted to start sourcing directly from small scale farmers all across the world. And first started off by just Googling online, "rose hips cooperative." I found one in South Africa. Also found a cacao cooperative in Dominican Republic.
John Gallagher: Oh wow.
Nadine Joseph: And so started working with those that had an established website, which were usually farmers cooperatives and collectives. But a lot of the herbs that I was interested in didn't have that. So I had to at some point start going out and visiting farmers, which was a whole journey in and of itself. But in terms of how I scaled up the company from there, there's kind of two journeys here, the sourcing journey and then the growing the company journey. And in terms of sourcing, it was definitely I just realized I had to get out there from advice from some of my friends who are also in... I have a few friends who source shea butter directly, and they had given me advice to just go out and go to the country and just start asking people how you can get access to these herbs. Which I thought was crazy, because I'm very-
John Gallagher: Yeah, are you that kind of like... You know, just go out and get a plane ticket and find your way all the way out?
Nadine Joseph: No, I am not that kind of person. I'm not that kind of person. I thought she was insane, because I also am not the kind of person who, I'm not super risky. I like having an itinerary.
John Gallagher: Me neither.
Nadine Joseph: And so, yeah, for instance, for my India sourcing trip, I got in touch with a ashwagandha researcher and she put me in touch with a few farmers that she knew, and then those farmers put me in touch with other farmers. Or I also traveled to visit a food forest run by a gentleman who was right outside of Delhi, and he guided me throughout the ashwagandha and amla berry landscape in India and introduced me to a lot of his farmer friends. So it really was like that to where I had a few people that I contacted online and it was just like, "Hey, can I meet you in person?" And they put me in touch with others. That was the only way to do it, because a lot of the farmers that I work with, they don't have a website, they're usually just selling to their local markets. So it's definitely an interesting journey.
John Gallagher: Can you tell us about one of the farmers or about their family or something amazing? I'm just like, wow, I can imagine a book where you go on adventures and each chapter is an herb and you tell the story about how that comes to us.
Nadine Joseph: Yeah, so one of the farms that I source from is located in the Madhya Pradesh region of India, and was introduced to me by the ashwagandha researcher I was telling you about, who really was just a godsend for me when I was in India and really believed in what I was doing. And the farm is a five acre farm, they only grow organically, and it's owned by the Shyam family, and they've been growing there for five generations. I went on the farm and kind visited both Shyam and his father, and this was just a completely new way of selling their crops and they were just so honored that I had made the trip out because it's very unusual to have a herbal company come out and the actual person who owns the company come out and visit and tell them that this is important to me. So they had been selling their ashwagandha, and they actually have a multi crop farm. So they ashwagandha, they have actually a quarter of an acre of poppies, which interestingly in India, that's like the max that you can grow. And just so many other crops from chamomile and shatavari, there's many different things. And I was mostly interested in their ashwagandha and chamomile. And yeah, I've been working with them now for around two years, and it's been interesting because they had really transitioned into going the conventional farming route, if that makes sense. So away from regenerative practices, started using pesticides on, for instance, their peppers. And by me coming in there and saying, "Hey, it's really important for my company, and I understand why you're transitioning to more conventional, you get higher crop yield, but I'll pay you 20% more if you just transition back and start cover cropping again. And those peppers that you're growing, maybe just replace that with ashwagandha." So it's a collaboration. And most of the time when I'm speaking with these farmers, we all know they're transitioning into more conventional means because they want to feed their families. And to be honest, just food forestry and regenerative agriculture is not the most efficient way of growing. And so being able to go in there, source directly, and because I source directly, I'm able to pay more, is really, I think, the model that I'm going to stick with as we grow.
John Gallagher: Wow. This blows me away. I just love stories like this. This is what we need to do. This is so awesome. Thank you.
Nadine Joseph: It's funny because I had no experience in this industry and no one does it like this in the herbal supplement industry, there's a lot of obstacles to doing it like this, but I think it was because I came in with so little experience that I was able to develop this way of working.
Tara Ruth: Yeah, I think it's so beautiful to come in with this beginner's mind and with that and with that humility to not come up against the like, "Oh, well, it's always done this way." Because you might not even know how it's always done. So to give yourself that freedom to follow your own path with direct sourcing is really beautiful. And it makes me think about too, a lot of times on this podcast, we've talked about really building direct relationships with plants and how so much of the medicine of working with plants is that relationship with the plants. And I love how you're really bringing in the medicine of the people who are growing the plants and building relationships and really being in right relationship with the people who are bringing so much of their energy towards growing these beautiful plants. And I'm just really grateful for this work that you're doing of being in deep integrity with the plants and the people who are all coming together to make these beautiful blends that you offer.
Nadine Joseph: Thank you. It's something that I never thought I would get into. If you had asked me 10 years ago if I'd own an herbal supplement company that does direct sourcing, I would've thought you were crazy. But I feel like once you get into life and have a guiding internal, I don't know, ethics, it's just kind of wild what you get into.
John Gallagher: Yeah. Do you feature the stories of the farmers and these journeys on your site or your emails? We're talking about entrepreneurship here, so people might be interested in that. So that's something that we like to do, and I'm wondering if you've do that or thought of that?
Nadine Joseph: Yeah, so I share via Instagram, we mention it on our website and our blog. You know what I would really love to do, and there's another female entrepreneur, the owner of Diaspora, who does this really well, yeah-
Tara Ruth: They're amazing.
Nadine Joseph: Oh my gosh, yes. And they do complete farmer profiles and videos of the harvest, and I'd love to get to that point. But I'm a bootstrapped entrepreneur and most of the stuff that you see on the website has been done by me and Instagram. And so it's definitely a work in progress.
John Gallagher: It's hard to do everything. It's hard to do everything.
Nadine Joseph: Yeah, yeah.
John Gallagher: Have you found that other herbalists, say you develop a relationship with a farmer and it would help them to have more customers and that, have you been able to lead other herbalist or companies to those same parts of the supply chain? I don't know how it works.
Nadine Joseph: I actually really have thought about opening up wholesale of our ingredients, just because we'll order 500 kilos or a few tons, and then the herbalist will know where it comes from, who it comes from. They'll also be able to share that story with their audiences as well. Because I kind of look at the wholesale landscape and I think it's just broken, there's no transparency in a lot of the ingredients, and I'd really love to do that. But honestly, right now I don't actually have too many other herbal product friends. So maybe once I get that part of my network, I can connect with them with more farmers. But that's a really great idea.
Tara Ruth: Hearing you talk about all of this and the ins and outs of running Peak and Valley and doing direct sourcing, it's making me think about how much work this is. And I'm curious, you're saying you got into this business after recovering from a lot of burnout, and I'm wondering how you, as an herbalist working with these a adaptogens, what kind of herbal strategies do you utilize now to avoid adrenal fatigue and burnout? How do you really tend to yourself with the herbs on this herbal path?
Nadine Joseph: Yeah. I mean, my non-negotiable is our Balance My Stress blend, and that has ashwagandha, reishi mushroom, eleuthero root. I take that one every single day. And those are, especially eleuthero, known to help with fatigue resistance, ashwagandha obviously for stress, reishi for immune support. And I think that's part of what's been helping me kind of power through this. But herbs are only a part of the equation, obviously when you're putting your body under any amount of stress, it's a holistic point of view that you'll have to have in order to manage that stress. And for me, what's also been super important was I've developed a self-care routine that I have been refining over the years that's been instrumental in helping me last this long. I've had this company for four years, and for the most part, it's been a solo operation, which is kind of crazy.
John Gallagher: No, I know what that's like. Yeah.
Nadine Joseph: Yeah. So what's important for me to do on the daily is I wake up early, I have an hour of time for myself, do a short meditation, go running, do some Pilates, have my morning adaptogenic tonic and some matcha, and that's been the routine that's helped me. I always look at some of my other fellow entrepreneurs that have children, and I can't imagine how when I decide to have children how my routine will change. But we'll see how it goes.
John Gallagher: Oh, it'll change. Well, just to let you know that Kimberly and I started our herbal business LearningHerbs because of the kids. It was built into our lives. So you just adapt. It's an adaptogen. But I love looking at your site, if anybody didn't catch it before, peakandvalley.co, not com, .co and looking at Restore My Sleep, Balance My Stress, Nurture My Skin, Nourish My Brain, these sound like these may be all formulas that you probably originally came up with for yourself, because I've done that too, where I make this for myself and I'm like, "Okay, I know this works and now I can share it with people." Is that where these blends, and they're powders, right, come from?
Nadine Joseph: So all of them are powders. We're actually in the middle of rolling out capsule versions of all of these. They'll be available in CVS and Kroger, which I'm really excited about. I haven't even announced this on our Instagram yet.
John Gallagher: Whoa.
Tara Ruth: That's huge, congratulations.
John Gallagher: How are you doing this all? It's amazing.
Nadine Joseph: But it's going to be 3000 stores, which I can't even believe. And I'm very excited.
Tara Ruth: Wow. That's huge.
Nadine Joseph: But yeah, they're all powders and capsules.
John Gallagher: Okay, you're going to need some help.
Nadine Joseph: Yeah, I really do. But the thing is is that I, again, I'm bootstrapped and managing cash flows, especially when you increase distribution so sharply is very challenging.
John Gallagher: Yeah. How's that work? It's like, "I have this amazing product." And then you approach a CVS or that type of store, and it's like, how do you even get in the door? Do you just call them and then do you send them, do they try it themselves? Explain how this works. I'm so amazed by this.
Nadine Joseph: Yeah, of course. So there's a few different ways of getting in touch with retailers. I've been really fortunate in that most of the retailers that we're in right now have actually reached out to us first. So it'll be a buyer that already uses our product and/or has seen our Instagram and is super impressed and so they'll reach out saying, "Hey, we would like you to be on shelf in this many stores." But I highly recommend using RangeMe for other herbal product entrepreneurs. That's also been a really good resource to getting in touch with buyers.
John Gallagher: What's that?
Nadine Joseph: RangeMe. R-A-N-G-E.
John Gallagher: ArrangeMe.
Nadine Joseph: No, just RangeMe. It's an odd name, an odd name. But it's a wholesale platform that's just dedicated to getting brands in touch with buyers. Then the next step is to formally pitch your product to the buyer during a category review. And during that conversation, you'll talk about whether or not the buyer wants your product, how many stores you want to be in, what you can do in terms of funding, et cetera. Yeah, and then you go through the onboarding process. Each retailer has a different onboarding process. I think the most challenging one I've ever been through is CVS. Oh my God, it took me a year of onboarding. But yeah, that's kind of the rough outline.
John Gallagher: And I love that, there's something of a theme I'm seeing here like in bridges. You're bridging on one hand these farmers and they're using healthier farming techniques and in herbs that would never be grown and be available to us, you're doing that. But then you're also taking these amazing herbs and this way of life, and you're bridging that to CVS.
Nadine Joseph: Exactly.
John Gallagher: So do you just kind of find that that's what you do often in your life?
Nadine Joseph: I guess so. I've never heard anyone break it down like that. I think for me, what I'm finding is a theme, there's a lot of herbal supplement companies out there, and the vast majority of them, honestly, I haven't even met one that sources in the same way that we do. There's some tea companies that do, but not what we're doing. And what's interesting is most don't believe it's scalable, what we're doing, but it really is. And I'm kind of viewing what I'm doing, and maybe my purpose is to prove that this is scalable, it is scalable to work with the earth in this way. Yeah, that's kind of the theme here.
John Gallagher: Okay, so Tara, while Nadine was talking, the AI came out with another haiku.
Tara Ruth: Oh my God.
John Gallagher: Yeah, she can't hear us right now so we're just off in the side over here. And I got to share this with you.
Tara Ruth: I can't wait.
John Gallagher: Okay. "Nadine tends with care, Peak and Valley herbs thrive now. Healing blooms abound."
Tara Ruth: Wow. Healing blooms abound, indeed.
John Gallagher: I'm just loving this conversation. The fact that I don't know if I've ever met an herbal entrepreneur that's just like, "Yeah, I'm going to go to other countries and source." She's not just sourcing these herbs, she's changing the way things are done out there, and that is what's so inspiring, making change. I love it. So Nadine's also talking about adaptogens and ashwagandha and all. So we have a site called HerbMentor, everyone, if you haven't heard of it. And we have courses on there and herbal monographs, which are like plant profiles, and a community to ask questions and all. But Tara, I was wondering if you could tell folks about a couple of courses that may be of interest related to what Nadine's talking about.
Tara Ruth: Absolutely. So one of the first ones that comes to mind is called Relax, which is aptly named because Relax is a course that's all about natural solutions for stress, anxiety, and inflammation, and really gets to root causes of these stress and anxiety related conditions. And it just offers a really beautiful, not only guidance, but it feels like when we're experiencing stress and anxiety, it can be really challenging. And it's so nice to have really kind, compassionate support and a guide along the way. And KP is such a wonderful guide as he breaks down how inflammation interacts with the nervous system and really can exacerbate some of these conditions and offers some really helpful strategies and just herbal allies that we can work with on our journey, on our wellness journey. So I'm really grateful for that course as someone who can definitely tend towards stress and anxiety.
John Gallagher: Me too, me too.
Tara Ruth: Yes.
John Gallagher: I'm laughing with you.
Tara Ruth: Yes, yes. And another course that I'm really grateful for is Thomas Easley's Radicle Herbal. I had the pleasure of getting to edit the audio for this course. So I really got to know every episode. And one of my favorite episodes was all about the nervous system, and he just presented it in such... I just never thought of the nervous system this way, and it totally blew my mind and really changes how I work with herbs. And one of the greatest things about this course is that he not only tells us all about each body system, but he also gives us herbal allies to work with to support each body system, like the nervous system. So those are two of my favorite classes on HerbMentor and I couldn't help but think about them as Nadine was talking all about adaptogens.
John Gallagher: And if you want to learn more about ashwagandha, you can go to the plant profiles, the herb monographs there, and read more about, they're all scientifically researched and information you can trust, which Nadine really appreciates because she is a neuroscientist and loves research and all. So yeah, all you got to do is if you're interested in HerbMentor, you're listening to HerbMentor radio, so you can go to herbmentorradio.com, and to make it convenient for you, we put some little buttons there if you want to make it easy to subscribe free to our podcast, so this one you're listening to. But also for listeners, we like to put a special offer for HerbMentor, which can save you a lot per month. So for way less than one of these video streaming services, which is only about entertainment, you can have the Netflix for herbs and have that part of your life. And what Tara, I wrote another... Oh, sorry, AI wrote us another haiku.
Tara Ruth: I'm very emotionally available to hear it. Please share.
John Gallagher: The AI does more than haiku writing, but it's short.
Tara Ruth: Yes.
John Gallagher: Which is always why it was my favorite kind of poetry to write in grade school. So, "HerbMentor awaits nature's wisdom to unfold, healing through the plants."
Tara Ruth: That was beautiful.
John Gallagher: Okay, let's get back to Nadine.
Tara Ruth: Was there a moment, because there are so many people you're saying who don't do it this way, who don't believe that it is scalable, was there a moment when you were like, "I don't know if this is scalable either." And you proved yourself wrong? At what point did you kind of get to this level where you're like, "I do know that this is scalable and I can prove that this can work and we can be in right relationship with the Earth and farmers as we increase production."?
Nadine Joseph: I am still a pretty small company, and so I haven't exactly proved that it is scalable to the big guys out there. But there's been many moments that I've doubted it, to be honest. When you have a farmer who has a poor yield one year, but you were really relying on that amount, or when things get... There's always something stuck at a port somewhere.
Tara Ruth: Gosh, I bet especially with COVID and delays and everything.
Nadine Joseph: Oh my gosh. It wasn't a fun year. So it's still a work in progress, but I think I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel and really have developed just a standard operating procedure of how we can do this and how I can repeat it with other herbs. So still learning is my answer.
Tara Ruth: That's beautiful. Wow. With all of this experience that you've gathered, I'm curious, do you have any advice for maybe the home herbalist who's just starting to get an inkling that they might want to create an herbal products business of maybe what you wish you'd known at the beginning of this process? Or just any little nuggets of wisdom you could offer to people who are in the beginning stages?
Nadine Joseph: Yeah, of course. There's so many things.
Tara Ruth: Yeah.
Nadine Joseph: I think the first thing is to stand in your integrity and really use that as a guiding principle of your business, because other people will be able to recognize that. People want to work with you because of your integrity, so that's one thing. The second is to be very clear with yourself about your goal with the company, if you will start one. How big do you want to grow? How do you want to grow? And really talk with others that have gotten to that end point. Reach out via LinkedIn. People are always... I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've cold messaged someone on LinkedIn just asking for advice or how they got to where they were. People are always willing to tell you. So get clear on what it is you want to do and how far you want to go. Then ask others how they got there. And then what else can I say? If you want to follow a similar path to me by scaling in retail as a CPG business, I highly recommend reading the book Ramp Your Brand by Dr. Richardson. It was something I really wish I had read when I first started because it would've informed a lot of my strategy in retail especially. Yeah, there's so many. I could go on and on, but those are my main three things.
John Gallagher: You can if you want.
Tara Ruth: Yeah, I'm taking notes over here. I'm like, "This is such good information."
John Gallagher: Did you start at a farmer's market when you got your first blend together? Or did you go right into a store, like a local store?
Nadine Joseph: No actually, I started just online and selling to my friends and family. And honestly, I just couldn't figure out online, it wasn't working for me. So I would walk into random stores in Seattle and just be like, "Hey, are you interested in selling our product?" I would love to do a demo in the store for you to support the sales. And got my first set of local business accounts.
John Gallagher: Yeah. That's great. That seems like the best way from there. That's great.
Nadine Joseph: Yeah, yeah.
Tara Ruth: That's just so beautiful. I feel like hearing you talk about it takes a lot of courage just to walk into the store and be like, "I know that this is a great product and let's do it." And you also doing that on your direct sourcing journey. "Okay, I'm going to go here."
John Gallagher: Different countries, yeah.
Tara Ruth: "I'm going to figure it out. I'm going to meet people."
John Gallagher: You're determined. You're determined. And is that something that you think, mentioned your mom earlier, or maybe your other people in your family, did you get that sense of determination or... Tell us a little bit about that, where it all came from really.
Nadine Joseph: Yeah, and I have to say, I'm an extreme introvert, so this was very challenging. So from my mom, I really got an appreciation of the earth. I grew up foraging and making my own shampoo and conditioner and hair oils just with her and gardening. Oh my gosh, it was just such a rich childhood. But I think from my dad, he really nurtured within me a level of grit and determination. He immigrated here from Haiti when he was really young and built himself up to be successful here just from scratch. And all of his siblings did the same thing. So I kind of grew up with them as role models. And I don't know, it kind of taught me that as long as you keep on going, eventually you'll succeed. It's kind of like that monkey with the typewriter, I don't know what it is, metaphor. You give a monkey a typewriter, eventually they'll come out with a Shakespeare, it's going to happen. So yeah, I looked to my dad, my grandma. My grandma came here with five kids as a single mom with just no money. And she started a assisted living facility in Florida, where I'm from. And I have so much respect for her and for my family, and how they've been able to just build themselves from nothing. And I think that's kind of where I got it from. It's really nice being able to see someone, just to see someone go through such hardship and come out of it at the other end. It's inspiring. And every time I find myself at a low point, I think of my grandma and my dad and how they were able to get to where they are today. And it helps me get through.
John Gallagher: It's hard to know what to say next after that. That was beautiful.
Tara Ruth: Yeah, it sounds like you come from a family of entrepreneurs, and now here you are bringing that same grit into the really sacred work that you're doing and being in integrity every step of the way. It's really beautiful to see and to see someone be in this process of scaling up while holding true to their values, it's inspiring and makes me excited to think about the path that you're carving out and proving to people that they can also hold this level of integrity in their work as well.
John Gallagher: And a neuroscience researcher learning about adaptogens and then taking them out in the world and having them in the largest pharmacies. Has this inspired you to do more scientific research and studies, or would you like to at some point to put together what to be true from your own experience and scientific studies? Or are there tons of scientific studies already that are out there about these particular herbs?
Nadine Joseph: There are a lot of herbs that could definitely use more substantiation scientifically. And honestly, I really, really enjoyed life as a researcher. And if there was a point where if I wasn't doing this company, I would definitely go back into research because I really liked the idea of contributing to this vast array of knowledge like a database and letting that be something that could lead to therapies or just public education. I really like that. And so if I wasn't doing this, I'd definitely go back into doing that. But I think you also asked about whether or not we would ever do clinical trials, that's definitely on the books in the future, and it's very important to me to have our blend substantiated with clinical trials. It's very expensive, especially when you want to do it right. And so it's going to be maybe a few years from now, but it'll happen.
John Gallagher: And when you get all that together, you're going to be on Shark Tank the next season.
Nadine Joseph: I've applied to Shark Tank and they have rejected me twice.
John Gallagher: You'd be great.
Nadine Joseph: So if any of the Sharks are listening, get me on.
Tara Ruth: Yes.
John Gallagher: Well, I know Mark Cuban's going to ask you about the studies and stuff, so when you have those in your hand, they'll be, "Done." And he'll be like, "Oh, okay."
Tara Ruth: Hearing you talk about potentially doing more studies and also just how you've mentioned the herb ashwagandha a few times, I'm just curious, could you talk more about this plant and its gifts and why ashwagandha is a plant that you like to work with and include in your blends?
Nadine Joseph: Yes. I love ashwagandha. Absolutely love it. It was the first adaptogen that I started using other than reishi mushroom, and it hits just so many support systems. And first getting into its history, it's an Ayurvedic herb, it's also kind of known as Indian ginseng. And it helps relax an anxious mind, reduce stress, built up your body's tolerance to stress. And it does all of this without inducing a sense of fatigue. It's got a few active components that really help with certain benefits. It has alkaloids, steroidal lactones with amyloids, and each of them have different mechanisms of action, which affect the body in different ways. I actually use this in three of our blends. The Restore My Sleep, Nourish My Brain, and Balance My Stress because it helps with all three modalities. There's been a lot of evidence to show that it does help with improving sleep. There's been multiple double-blind placebo-controlled studies that show the same correlations that it can help with sleep efficiency, increasing total sleep time, reducing sleep onset latency. So just so many things. And I include it in our Balance My Stress blend because the amyloids within ashwagandha are known to help balance out cortisol levels. So if they're too high, it'll reduce, too low, it'll increase. And then also it's included in our Nourish My Brain blend for that stress help as well. So it's just such an amazing herb.
John Gallagher: Yes, I'm with you. It's been a huge part of my journey too. I love it.
Nadine Joseph: Yeah. How long have you been using it?
John Gallagher: Well, when I had a lot of nervous system and stress issues and stuff a few years back, I learned about ashwagandha and I saw this integrative medicine doctor who is giving me all these different supplements, like pill bottle after pill bottle, to the point where it's like sometimes doctors don't even realize how many pills they're prescribing you, and especially when it comes to supplements and things like that. So I was like, "Well, what can I blend?" So I took ashwagandha, and for me particularly, it was for my nerves. So I heard about Lions, man, I heard about lion's mane, what else is in there? The like maca and all. So what I did is I used those powders, but I also put in roasted dandelion root powder and cacao for the flavor. Sometimes I'll make gross tasting decoctions taste good by turning it into a chai type blend. So I was like, "Well, I can make a mocha type blend." And put all these together, these powders together, and then I mix it with a little milk. But you don't have to do that. Oh, and a banana. I make a smoothie out of it, basically. And it's really delicious. And in Kimberly's book, my wife, who wrote the book Aphrodisiac, there's a recipe in there called the AshwaMacaMocha Shake. And the recipe, if anyone's listening and has her book can find it there, because it has maca in it as well. So that way I wanted something where I wasn't taking a bunch of pills, and I would look forward to taking it every day. Because there's some mentors that I have, say KP Khalsa, big on ashwagandha, big on turmeric, but he's totally cool with just putting eight tablespoons and some water and slurping it back. I'm not going to do that.
Nadine Joseph: I'm with you there.
John Gallagher: So I had to make something that tastes good. And then my version doesn't have the maca, but I made one with maca for Kimberly, and she swears by it as she's going through menopause with hot flashes, that if she doesn't take that blend for a day, she literally gets hot flashes. So yeah, it's incredible ashwagandha. So it's in my everyday routine, except when I'm traveling like I am now, but at home every day.
Nadine Joseph: Mm-hmm. I can definitely feel you with also seeing a naturopathic physician that prescribes you like 20 pills. It's a lot.
Tara Ruth: Yes.
John Gallagher: I know. It's like, "Are these working?" I don't know, it's just like, "What's it all doing in my stomach? I
Tara Ruth: I love, too, that you're doing powders. The first time I had ashwagandha, it was in a tincture, and that was great. But I don't know, there's something about it. I felt a little distant from the plant, and I've now started working with it as a powder in teas, and something about getting to scoop the powder and put it in my tea and have this whole ritual with it, I just feel like I have more of a relationship with the plant and I can actually taste it. And it feels like it works better too, when I'm in that ritual and being really intentional with it.
Nadine Joseph: I think that's important. The ritual part is important, and that's why I started off with powders, because for me, just the act of sitting down, taking a moment to just drink my cocoa cardamom latte or whatever it is that I make up for the day, was also relaxing, outside of the benefits that you received from the plants and fungi. So yeah, it's kind of interesting because I held off in developing capsules for so long because I really like the ritual aspect. But a lot of people just like to knock back some capsules.
Tara Ruth: Totally.
Nadine Joseph: So here we are.
Tara Ruth: Yeah, it's great for that level of accessibility too.
John Gallagher: I just never think it's enough the capsules with some herbs. Some herbs as a couple of capsules is fine. But for adaptogen, sometimes it just feels like you need more, rather put it in a blend, like you're saying, Nadine, than knock back eight ashwagandha capsules or whatever the equivalent would be for an amount that's going to help.
Nadine Joseph: Yeah, so that was one big challenge that I had when developing the capsules was I had to figure out how to create the equivalent of the powder within our serving size is three capsules. So I had to experiment with different extracts and making sure that we had standardized tests, for example, with amyloids of the ashwagandha. So it was definitely a challenge. But I will say for the most part, when you're buying capsules, you are receiving less than you would with the powders for sure.
Tara Ruth: Yeah. I guess another thing I just wanted to say about ritual too is that the other day I was walking down this street in Oakland, and I walked by this boutique that was closed, but in the window they were selling mostly jewelry and things like that, but in the window, they had one herbal product and it was yours, and it was the Nourish My Brain blend, and I saw it through the window and I was like, "Oh my God, I've never seen this before. I'm going to interview Nadine this week." And just seeing the product, it was so inviting and warm, just even how you did the design. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I want that. I want to be in ritual with this herb blend here." And so just another level of care and attention to detail that you've brought to this whole business was just the beautiful packaging. I was like, "Oh my gosh, that is so inviting."
Nadine Joseph: Thank you. That means so much to me. I actually designed the packaging myself.
Tara Ruth: What? Oh my God.
Nadine Joseph: Yes. A branding and design agency was not in budget.
John Gallagher: Wow.
Tara Ruth: Wow. That's amazing.
John Gallagher: It's really good.
Nadine Joseph: Yeah, I had to learn Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator. It was an interesting time. But yeah, thank you for that.
Tara Ruth: That is so impressive. I didn't know I was complimenting the designer right now. Wow.
John Gallagher: Wow. Yeah, Nadine, I just want to thank you so much for joining us here today. Just your authenticity and beauty and artistry and generosity, all around badassery has been so impressive to me and inspiring. I just hope everyone out there listening just knows that if you have got something in you that's like, "I want to share this passion of mine." Whether it's herbs or anything else, but in our world here, we're talking about usually herbs and natural health, and you have your way and voice. I had a way of doing it, Tara does, and Nadine. They're all different, yet we're all inspiring people out there. And I welcome everyone out there to join us in connecting as many people as possible to the herbs. And Nadine, I loved your story, and thank you so much for sharing it with us.
Nadine Joseph: Thank you. It's an honor, an honor to share. I think one of my goals when I started this company was to share authentically, not too many can share the ups and downs of the experience. And I wish I had some of that authenticity when I started. So it's one thing that's really important is to share all the good and the bad that comes with running a company like this.
Tara Ruth: Thank you. And again, if people want to learn more about you and Peak and Valley, they can find you on peakandvalley.co or on Instagram @peakandvalleyco. Thank you so much, Nadine.
John Gallagher: Thank you, Nadine.
Nadine Joseph: Thank you. Thank you.
John Gallagher: Wait, wait, hold on. Don't go anywhere quite yet, everyone. We have one little final surprise on HerbMentor Radio for you today. And yes, Tara, what is it?
Tara Ruth: Yeah, you're not quite off the hook yet. We got a surprise. And the surprise is Herb Notes. And so you might be asking yourself right now, what is Herb Notes?
John Gallagher: Yeah, I'm asking myself what is Herb Notes?
Tara Ruth: Yeah, and an Herb Note is basically our new little video and audio series where we share each time, each Herb Note about one herb and three simple ways to use that herb and how to really start incorporating that herb into your daily routine, into your life, your kitchen. And it's all about just making the herbs a little more... Basically becoming friends with a new herb. So let's meet our new herb. I'm excited to get to know it.
John Gallagher: Yes, let's meet the new herb. And I just feel like this is a meditation on an herb in a way. Your voice is so calming.
Tara Ruth: Oh, thank you. Thank you.
John Gallagher: Yes. And also, if you go on the LearningHerbs blog, you can see the video version and you can just zone out on pictures. And this particular herb is probably one of the best videos we'll ever make because there's kittens in it.
Tara Ruth: I mean, what more could you ask for, honestly?
John Gallagher: Yes. So herbs, kittens. Take it away, Tara.
Tara Ruth: What better clickbait than that? Okay, with that, let's go on to our Herb Note on catnip.
John Gallagher: Kittens.
Tara Ruth: Welcome to Herb Notes. I'm Tara Ruth from LearningHerbs. When most people think of catnip, they think of it as that plant that makes our cats get very hyper. But here's the thing, catnip isn't just for cats. Catnip tea and tincture too offers many healing gifts to us humans as well. Perhaps the most surprising of all is that catnip calms and relaxes humans. Yeah, that's right, the leaves and flowering tops of this plant that hypes up cats is a relaxing sedative for our human nervous systems. Here are three surprising benefits of catnip. One, catnip can promote deep sleep and relaxation. Catnip is a calming sedative that's particularly indicated for anxiety paired with restlessness and irritability. Two, catnip can soothe an upset stomach. With its ability to relieve spasming and cramping, catnip can ease stomachache and flatulence. Three, catnip can help address pain and menstrual cramps. Just as catnip can ease digestive cramping, catnip can also ease muscle tension and cramping in general. It's particularly adept at easing smooth muscle cramping in the intestines and uterus. So to recap, here are three ways that you can use catnip. One, you can work with catnip to promote deep sleep and relaxation. Two, you can call on catnip to soothe an upset stomach. Three, you can use catnip to help address pain and menstrual cramps. And right now, you may be asking yourself, "Where can I find catnip?" And we love growing our own catnip. Catnip is a fairly easy plant to grow that thrives in small containers and larger beds alike. Plus catnip tends to require way less water than other mint family plants. Catnip is hardy to zones three through nine and prefers lots of sunshine. One of the biggest threats to your thriving catnip plant is, well, neighborhood cats who have been known to trample catnip plants with delight. Want to learn more about catnip benefits? Visit herbnotes.cards to grab a free deck of our top 12 herb notes. You'll learn all about common herbs like catnip, yarrow, echinacea, cinnamon, and more. This has been Herb Notes with me, Tara Ruth. Catch you next time.
John Gallagher: HerbMentor Radio and Herb Notes are 100% sustainably wild crafted podcasts. Written, performed, and produced by Tara Ruth and me, John Gallagher. Sound engineering by Zach Frank. Visit herbmentorradio.com to subscribe on your favorite podcast app, and to find out how you can be part of HerbMentor, which is a website that you must see to believe. HerbMentor Radio is a production of LearningHerbs.com LLC. All rights reserved. Thank you very, very, very much for listening.
