Tara Ruth: Keren is a Doctor of Clinical Nutrition, Registered Herbalist with the American Herbalists Guild, Holistic... Ooh, I'm going to start over.
John Gallagher: I'll start over, too.
Tara Ruth: Aroomba therapist.
John Gallagher: See, it's so weird how that happened. Aroomba therapist is...
Dr. Keren Dolan: I love that.
John Gallagher: Oh my gosh, that's something we should invent.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Yes.
Tara Ruth: I was imagining the little Roomba vacuum...
John Gallagher: It's so... Yeah.
Tara Ruth: ... and then, just spritzing the room...
John Gallagher: Spritzing the room.
Tara Ruth: ... with essential oils. Yeah.
John Gallagher: I think that's a new product.
Tara Ruth: Do you?
Dr. Keren Dolan: It is, I love it.
John Gallagher: You are listening to HerbMentor Radio by LearningHerbs. I'm John Gallagher.
Tara Ruth: And I'm Tara Ruth. Today we're chatting with Dr. Keren Dolan. Keren is a Doctor of Clinical Nutrition, Registered Herbalist with the American Herbalists Guild, Holistic Aromatherapist and author of several peer-reviewed articles emphasizing integrative functional nutrition. Her goal as a clinician is promoting wellness and resilience through advanced nutritional strategies and targeted botanical interventions. You can learn more about Dr. Dolan's work at nourishwell-llc.com.
John Gallagher: Keren, welcome and thank you so much for joining us.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Thank you for having me. So glad to be here.
Tara Ruth: Yeah, we're super excited to chat with you. And when I was getting to know your work a little bit before our interview, I kept on just thinking about the concept of food as medicine, and how you blend food as medicine with your clinical nutrition background and herbalism background. And I just think about how this term, "food is medicine," gets tossed around a whole lot these days. And I'm curious, as an herbalist and a nutritionist, can you just share a little bit with us about how you weave these two modalities together?
John Gallagher: That's not a big question at all, but go right ahead.
Tara Ruth: Yeah, yeah, just casual.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Yeah. No, I mean it's a really interesting, I think that the concept of food as medicine, it really applies to our current societal kind of model, of how we don't really count things as important unless it has this concept. "Oh well, it's like a medical intervention," or something like that. When in reality, what we're really saying, is that our food is our source of connection to our world. That's how we live, that's how we breathe, that's how we function, is everything that we take in that allows us to do that. And that's something that as herbalists, we've pretty much known, right?
John Gallagher: Yeah.
Dr. Keren Dolan: It's kind of just a part of what we do, but in order to bring it into a more conventional model with today's kind of biomedical emphasis, I think we're saying, "food is medicine," a lot more. So that our medical system can kind of catch up, and can realize the importance of what we take in. It's shocking how that's just not something that's taught, in medical schools, in Western medical schools. So the idea that what you eat can really have a tremendous impact on how well you heal, and how you respond to the needs of your day, is something that a lot of clinicians might take for granted.
John Gallagher: Do you have patients who may come to you and are, "Hey, just give me this pill or supplement for it." And you're sometimes, "You know, just cooking up a stir fry would be good, or using turmeric in your cooking, would be good." How do you have those conversations with people, with your patients, who may be a little newer to thinking about this? Because it is a big transition, right? People cooking, and food, is something people just kind of have in their daily rhythm. And then to change what they might be eating, or how they might be cooking, it's a lot harder than just taking a pill. So what's that like, for you?
Dr. Keren Dolan: That's true. There are some people that are just very pill-oriented, and it's difficult to pull them away from that, because there is a magic to it, right? This idea that, "Oh, well if I just pop this supplement and go, I'm getting what I need." I think part of it has to do with the Jetsons and that cartoon, where they... Do you remember?
John Gallagher: It's amazing how they worked their way into our lives, 50 years later.
Dr. Keren Dolan: I know. Because they were just like, "Take these pills, and then you'll be fine." But honestly, I think there are some people for whom the concept of preparing a meal and getting nourishment from it, is actually a really big hurdle to overcome, like you said. And usually to me, I think that's indicative of a deeper kind of breakdown in that person's relationship to food. So sometimes our ability to be able to receive the nourishment from our food, it's a deeply personal kind of experience. If you actually think about the process of eating, and what goes into actually allowing yourself to integrate that food, and those nutrients. So when we have people who are locked down, maybe their lives are so busy they're just kind of going from thing to thing, and it's hard to even sit long enough to breathe, much less notice how they're feeling. For these people, the idea that they're going to stop and mindfully prepare a meal, is hard.
Tara Ruth: Yeah.
Dr. Keren Dolan: That, oftentimes, is a way we can open a door to saying, "Well, how can we bring some of that back into your daily life?"
Tara Ruth: Absolutely. It makes me think about, with herbalism, how it can be really easy to just be like, "Okay, I'm going to learn what this herb is good for," or with food, too. "I'm going to learn what this food is good for." But you're really presence-ing how we relate to food in our personal lives, and in our childhoods, and just in community at large. And it's really beautiful to weave that all together.
John Gallagher: Well because the customs or what people are used to. Like say for, I know Tara grew up with hippie parents, so y'all were eating together...
Tara Ruth: Calling me out.
John Gallagher: ... and eating good food. But I grew up in the '70s, with parents from the city, in the era of Tuna Helper. And I had a lot of that. So when I was learning about herbs, and food is medicine, and the ritual around eating and whatnot. That was kind of new for me. And it was really, give the credit to my wonderful wife Kimberly... She grew up in a similar era, for embracing that, and really creating a culture in our own family. So our kids understood that. And now my daughter, in college can't stand the dining hall. And it's pretty good at Oregon State University, and yet with her friend, is out going to markets and co-ops and cooking in the dorm kitchen. And I can see her on her own bringing in a lot of the things that she grew up with, all of a sudden, that she's interested in. So yeah, I guess it's kind of challenging for people, at least my generation, to change a lot of that. So that's really interesting.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And then the age of TV dinners.
John Gallagher: Yes.
Dr. Keren Dolan: And the frozen food. It was definitely a shift from how generations before would've eaten. And I think about it, my grandmother grew up, so it was Depression times. And so I remember visiting with her, and she would tell me about how, after dinner her family, she would go out with her mom. They would go out for a walk, and they would come back and have a water sandwich, for dessert. And it was like, "A water sandwich?" Because there was no... They didn't have dessert, really. So it was a glass of water, but they enjoyed it as if it was a meal, as if it was a treat. To enjoy it together, the idea, the energy of being together and sharing something together. It doesn't really matter as much, what the food is.
Tara Ruth: Yeah.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Same flavor, different color. But the thing was, for her, sitting in my lap. She kind of curled up in my lap, and she was sucking on this red Popsicle. And it was actually extremely nourishing from my viewpoint, because there was this comfort of being in mama's lap sucking on a Popsicle, that the cascade of anti-inflammatory responses within the body that can come with that. And overcome the sugar, and overcome the Red number 40, or whatever. We discount that. So I think nourishment, and when food can be medicine, so many times, you might not have a lot of options available to you. But the way you have it, the way you enjoy it, that can bring in a lot of that nourishment to change the way it moves in your body.
John Gallagher: So what are some foods, food is medicine, that you may quote, unquote, "prescribe" to people when they're... Of course, everyone coming to you has a different scenario in there. But how do you approach that? What are some of your favorite... Well, foods or herbs, or common herbs, that you may tell people to put into their diets?
Dr. Keren Dolan: That's interesting. I'm a very big proponent of personalized nutrition, so I don't necessarily have an automatic, but what I can say is I'll talk to people about preparing foods. We talk about cooked vegetables, cooked rather than raw, even if it's lightly steamed. Raw vegetables can be really difficult, especially for people that have been dealing with any kind of generalized debility, or digestive insufficiency, to actually get nourishment from. So we want to add a little bit of that heat, just to kind of start the process of breaking it down, and increase the bioavailability for people.
John Gallagher: Right.
Dr. Keren Dolan: I'll also talk to people about... Some of those, especially depending on if someone's really not feeling well, it's like, how would you feel feed a little kid? A toddler who's just recovering. You're going to prepare things that are soft and easily digestible, that are really well prepared, they've kind of soaked for a while, they've cooked for a while. That's how you know you're getting to the good stuff. So I encourage people, definitely different than Stouffer's, or whatever they would pull out of the freezer. That when you're looking to really kind of heal, that time factor and allowing the foods, the different herbs that you're putting together, to blend and make a rich kind of soup of nourishment. That's, to me, the better way from a food as medicine perspective.
John Gallagher: Love that. Soup. Soup is nourishment, personalized nutrition.
Dr. Keren Dolan: I mean as far as herb-wise, we have as a society, we've kind of identified our culinary medicinal herbs that folks tend to just have and their spice cabinet. And because we're not often cooking in the kitchen, they don't end up making their way into our food so much anymore. But really being liberal with an exploration of those spices and herbs in the cabinet, I think you can't beat that when you add it in to your soups, and your porridges and things like that. I love... I mean, who doesn't... Well, I don't know. There might be some people who don't love chamomile, but I mean, gosh. Chamomile has got to be one of the most kind of all around... Especially that German chamomile. It just has so many benefits. I'm like, "If all I could," I don't know. Right now, in my current state I'm feeling like, if I only had one herb that I could take with me? It might just be that. German chamomile. So I love integrating that for people, as well.
John Gallagher: I once did a video where I was traveling, and my daughter wasn't feeling well, and I went out. I needed to get something so I'd go out to... Of course, Dad, the kid's sick. And I'm of course recording myself getting herbs. I just realized what I just said. So folks... But anyway, I could get chamomile tea at any supermarket. I could get it at Starbucks, if I needed to, but it was the middle of the night. I actually got hot water at a convenience store. So hot water, and chamomile tea at the 24-hour grocery, did wonders.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Yes.
John Gallagher: When you're traveling, it's usually around, which is really cool.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Right. It's amazing how it's made its way even into our convenience stores. That herb has found its way into our hearts.
Tara Ruth: For sure. Absolutely. I've been thinking about chamomile a lot this week too, because I really underestimated it, because it was a plant that I just grew up drinking as a tea. Kind of just thinking it was for taste. And then these past few weeks it's been a really beautiful ally with my nervous system, and relaxation. And I love thinking about, as an herbalist now, all the culinary herbs or beverage teas, like mint or chamomile that I grew up with and didn't think much of, at the time.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Right, yeah. Because it's so easy to get it, we can often discount it and take it for granted. But I even find with inflammation... Well, actually with acute injury. So I was in off with my kids, one of them was, we were at grandma's house doing a cool move. Fell off the stairs, hit her face on the floor, it was a big kind of bloody lip, swelling, gash. And we did a compress. Mom had chamomile in the kitchen. So we just did a warm compress of chamomile, and you would be amazed at how well it healed up. How easily it just slowed any kind of bleeding, brought down the swelling significantly, all just within that evening.
John Gallagher: Wow.
Tara Ruth: Wow. That's amazing.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Yeah.
John Gallagher: That's wild. And most people wouldn't use it like that. And just like my kids grew up with only knowing it as this big jar of flowers we would have on the counter...
Dr. Keren Dolan: Right?
John Gallagher: ... that we would pretty much, 95% of the time, just use it for stuffy noses. Like, the steam.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Yeah.
John Gallagher: Yeah, simmer up some water, throw a couple big handfuls in, cover it up for a little bit...
Dr. Keren Dolan: I like that.
John Gallagher: ... and then put your towel over your head, and breathe it in. And make sure you've got some Kleenex next to you.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Yeah.
John Gallagher: Is our little family ritual.
Dr. Keren Dolan: I love that.
John Gallagher: So that's kind of what it is, looking at food is medicine, and herbs like this. When you build it into a family story and ritual, the kids remember it, and maybe it becomes something that gets handed down and we can rebuild those connections between the generations and herbs that, so much has been lost. Right?
Dr. Keren Dolan: Absolutely. It's so true. And it's interesting because we read these different herbal approaches. I'm, in my training, really kind of enamored with some of the eclectic tradition, and looking at the way they use herbs in. And it's funny because I think it's David Winston who calls it like the purge them, puke them, and bleed them type of medicine. But when you explore it personally, and realize how many of our plants have these different actions, all within that one particular plant.
Tara Ruth: Choose your own adventure.
Dr. Keren Dolan: "Wow." Right, choose your own adventure. But it's this idea of going from the learning in books, and like you're saying, John. How do you reintegrate that into family stories? Weave it into personal experiences. By actually, I think we have to be intrepid explorers, like you all are. To reestablish those relationships, and take it off of the pages of lore and history, and make it real. How do we actually use it?
John Gallagher: Yeah, I mean gosh, you really hit there the whole reason why Tara and I do this podcast, it's like, what are the stories behind it all?
Dr. Keren Dolan: Yeah.
John Gallagher: So that was absolutely incredible. All of this on food is medicine. It's my favorite thing to talk about...
Tara Ruth: Uh, same.
John Gallagher: ... even if it wasn't my thing. And we have some fun things that are coming up with Keren. The thing is, this could have been a two part episode, right?
Tara Ruth: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I didn't want to say goodbye.
John Gallagher: I didn't want to say goodbye, and we go on a bit. But the thing is, if you at home want to make it a two part episode, just hit pause. And go get a snack, and then come back...
Tara Ruth: The DIY, a two part episode.
John Gallagher: ... and hit play, and then it's a two part episode. So we'll just call it part two. This will be part... Well, we're just about to get to part two. We're going to talk about aromatherapy, and these fancy words. What is it again?
Tara Ruth: Hormesis, I think is the word?
John Gallagher: And xenohormesis?
Tara Ruth: Yes.
John Gallagher: Yes. You're going to learn about that.
Tara Ruth: Yeah. I had no idea what that was.
John Gallagher: Functional medicine, aromatherapy, what is it? Probiotics. So we have all these things to get to, but since we were just talking about food as medicine, I thought I'd take this moment to mention that if you want to go a little deeper into this on HerbMentor, our membership site, which you can start for a dollar if you would like, to check it out for a week. We have two courses on there, and one is by an amazing food as medicine teacher. Well actually, both are, named K.P. Khalsa, and we have a course called Culinary Herbalism on there. And have you listened to this, Tara?
Tara Ruth: I have listened to it. I really love it.
John Gallagher: It is preparations, recipes for your skin, digestion, immune system, respiratory system, tonics, musculoskeletal, cardio, vascular, detoxification, all food is medicine into those perspectives. And K.P. gives you all these recipes, and it's the kind of thing where you could put on as you're cooking or doing the dishes and just listen in the background. And maybe you'll be inspired, to go a little deeper. You don't have to sit and show up for a course online, or anything. You can just kind of build it into your life.
Tara Ruth: For sure.
John Gallagher: And the other one happens to be called...
Tara Ruth: Oh, Food is Medicine. How interesting.
John Gallagher: I know, I know. And this one's audio, by Todd Caldecott, and Todd and K.P. both have a big background in Ayurvedic medicine. And Todd does, in Tibetan medicine, as well. But it's wild. They have a different approach, and yet they have a similar background, and talk about this. Food is medicine. And that's why I have both on there, both on HerbMentor, because Todd has a whole different way of looking at stuff and he gives even more amazing tips. And that's what I think is good. The diversity of information.
Tara Ruth: So good.
John Gallagher: So good. And so that's on HerbMentor. And you could... Oh, you know what, Tara? We sometimes have a special offer for folks.
Tara Ruth: Oh my God. We do.
John Gallagher: And where can they find out about that?
Tara Ruth: They can find that on herbmentor-radio.com.
John Gallagher: Yeah, while you're there you could hit subscribe to your favorite podcast appropriate, for HerbMentor Radio, so you never miss an episode. And I think we should get on back to that episode, because there's a lot to talk about with Keren.
Tara Ruth: Absolutely. Time for part two.
John Gallagher: Yeah, part two. So wait, do they hit play? Have they already hit play for part two? Or now you pause, go get your snack, come back.
Tara Ruth: I don't know. I don't know the order of operations, oh no!
John Gallagher: Whatever y'all want to do, just do. But we're just so grateful that you're here and listening to us.
Tara Ruth: You talked a little bit about your grandmother, and now weaving herbs in with your own kids, and I'm curious. How did you get on this plant path? Where did those threads start for you, in your life, and spark of interest in this arena?
Dr. Keren Dolan: It's so interesting, because I really think that it was a calling, I really feel like the plants kind of called to me, in that. Because I grew up similar to John's experience, like Hamburger Helper, Tuna Helper. If I had a sniffle, my parents were quick to bring me Triaminic or NyQuil. Right?
John Gallagher: Actifed.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Actifed.
John Gallagher: In that awful red syrup.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Oh, they were so awful.
John Gallagher: Before it was even a pill.
Dr. Keren Dolan: It's so true.
John Gallagher: I can still taste it.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Oh my gosh. And no knocking... I'm sure, for all of you that benefit from those over the counter medications, more power to you. But I just could not tolerate the green NyQuil. I just couldn't get it to go down. And so I think that having that opportunity, I think it was really interesting. My dad had the Jethro Kloss book, Back to Eden. And I was like, "Whoa, what's this all about?" So I don't know who gave it to him. I'm not sure he ever even read it.
Tara Ruth: Yeah.
Dr. Keren Dolan: And I started reading it, I was like, "This is interesting."
Tara Ruth: Yeah.
Dr. Keren Dolan: And then when I was in high school, I had a really good friend who was, himself, getting some support from an herbalist. And I had been having this recurrent upper respiratory infection. I just couldn't get rid of it. And I had had two to three rounds of antibiotics. It just was not going anywhere. And my friend suggested hyssop tea. He was like, "You might want to try hyssop tea, just maybe having it a few times a day on an empty stomach, with a little water." Lo and behold, it really did the trick for me. And I was like, eyes opened, right?
Tara Ruth: Yeah.
Dr. Keren Dolan: I couldn't believe the power and the potency, but I didn't know really where to go to learn more. And I kind of took a little bit of a wayward path in that I discovered aromatherapy, like essential oils. How most teenagers and late teenagers did at the mall, I was at the mall.
Tara Ruth: Yes.
Dr. Keren Dolan: And somebody, this woman actually had this incredible, she had a shop that was just essential oils. She was ahead of her time, and it was amazing, and my mind was blown. And so I think this is the plants, the seductive kind of call.
Tara Ruth: Yeah.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Because I was like, "Wow, I want to know more. What's in this bottle is just getting me excited to learn more." So that's how I ended up getting more and more into the actual herbs themselves, the plants themselves. And it was then that I learned about my home family history. That's when people would say, "Oh yeah, your great grandparents were herb doctors, right here. This land here, they were using for medicine."
Tara Ruth: Wow.
Dr. Keren Dolan: So I'm like, "Well, why aren't we doing that anymore? Why'd you guys stop?" So now it's coming full circle, it's allowing me to reconnect with my family history, because the stories are coming out. The books and the information that they passed down, that they'd kind of lost track of. So yeah, that's how I got into it, and I'm so grateful.
Tara Ruth: Thank you so much for sharing how all those threads weave together.
John Gallagher: Yeah.
Tara Ruth: So beautiful to hear, and one of the threads that you brought up was aromatherapy, and essential oils. And I feel like that's really common for a lot of people. For so many people, they don't maybe think about the plants and then they're like, "What is this amazing smelling bottle of lavender essential oil?"
Dr. Keren Dolan: Right.
Tara Ruth: Yeah. And I'm curious, I think for so many people too, we don't actually know, what is an essential oil? Or, what is a hydrosol?
John Gallagher: Yeah. A lot of people just hear, it's like one of those buzz things in the air. Like, "Oh, so-and-so is aromatherapy," or whatnot. And people don't even all really quite understand how to go about it, or to do it in a way that's healthy to them.
Tara Ruth: Totally.
Dr. Keren Dolan: That's true.
Tara Ruth: Yeah.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Yeah, I think it's really interesting, because I'm glad that I actually started to get into aromatherapy before it became a very, very trendy thing. So I was able to learn about it without there being a lot of push or influences suggesting that we go with our, "If a little bit is good, a lot must be great," mentality.
John Gallagher: Right.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Right? Because what's really interesting about it is, the aroma therapy, what we're really using is the volatile oils of plants, the aromatic volatile oils. And we know that our plants, that they develop these, they produce these often as part of their immune system, or their way of interacting with the world around them. Or their way of attracting just the right pollinator. And so we know that the plants, it's a dynamic kind of interplay with the plants and their environment, whenever they're producing these volatile oils. So for us, especially as you start getting into the academic side and learning about hormesis and xenohormesis, I'm not sure if your listeners are familiar with these concepts, but...
John Gallagher: I'm not.
Tara Ruth: I'm not, either.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Well, this idea of...
John Gallagher: To be honest with everyone, I have no idea.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Well, do you want me to tell you about it?
John Gallagher: Please do, uh-huh.
Tara Ruth: Oh my gosh, I'm so curious. Cliffhanger.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Okay. So the concept of hormesis is one where we see that having a little bit of exposure to certain things, can actually help us to build up or have improved responses to that thing over time. So for example, they saw in Chernobyl, for people that had a small bit of exposure to radiation, their actual long term outcomes in terms of cancer risk were lowered, compared to people that have a higher exposure, or no exposure at all.
Tara Ruth: Wow.
Dr. Keren Dolan: So there's a sweet spot. Well, it's the same thing with our plants. People always talk about things like, "Wow, did you know that such and such plant has arsenic in it?" Well yeah, but it's in a hormetic dose, it's just enough that it's therapeutically supportive for those that are ingesting that plant. Unless of course we know it's a low dose herbal, or something we're not supposed to be ingesting. But apples, if you have happen to have an apple seed, or something like that. So the same thing is true with volatile oils in our essential oils of our plant. So when you harvest that plant, normally you're getting some of that essential oil, let's say with clove. You might get some of it in, that you're having in your food, you're having it in your spice. But it's such a small amount, such a low dose, and it's so therapeutic. When you have too much of it though, if you overdose on it, you get too much. That's where we start seeing people having significant issues with their detoxification, their ability to manage it becomes a burden. So that's this idea of hormesis, is that there's just enough, the dose is just enough, that it improves your outcomes overall, and it's therapeutic for you.
John Gallagher: So for most people, definitely, if they find a local farm, a farmer's market, a CSA, which is a subscription farm, then that'll be wonderful on the food is medicine. And I'm thinking, well a lot of people listening to this make their own remedies with local plants...
Tara Ruth: Totally.
John Gallagher: ... and it does make the case for, instead of buying the tincture from wherever, make it yourself with something from the garden. Do you ever have any patients who do that, actually make their own medicine? Or do you have people around you make their medicine, you recommend them get their supplements or tinctures from?
Dr. Keren Dolan: Yeah, it's a really great question. So it depends. When you're talking about daily nourishment, like daily ongoing care, then I think a hundred percent. If you can grow some food, just locally, even if it's just container gardening if you have limited space. That, if you can grow your own herbs locally, and have your own rosemary tea...
Tara Ruth: Yeah.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Just things that are easy for us to get, and cultivate. I totally think that that relationship, having a relationship with the plant, where there's an energetic exchange as well as a nutrient exchange. I just think you can't beat that, for ongoing care. Now, however, if I'm going to be recommending something that's a therapeutic, that I'm looking for a certain standardized level of particular constituents, I know it's probably going to be grown in a particular place. So for example, we might look at a standard of lavender. So we might look at a Lavandula angustifolia that's grown in France, in certain fields in France, versus one that I might grow in my garden here. That we know that when we take a look at the analysis of the essential oils, that the Lavandula angustifolia profile is going to look different, depending on where in the world it was grown, when it was harvested, how it was harvested, how it was steam distilled. And so a lot of the therapeutic properties that we as ascribe to that particular essential oil, will have to do with those constituents. So if I say, "Well, I'm going to just grow some in my yard, and then I'm going to harvest it when I harvest it, and then I'm just going to use my little still here, make my essential oil."
Tara Ruth: Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Yeah. So having it in mind, the question is, what are you trying to use it for? And what are you trying to do? Are you looking for a certain amount of cineole?
Tara Ruth: Right.
Dr. Keren Dolan: 1/8 cineole, in this particular rosemary? Or are you looking for something that's got a higher linalool content? If we're looking at it at that level, it does make a difference.
Tara Ruth: It makes me think about, when you were talking, it's before around wanting to make your protocols with patients and clients very personalized, and just how important it is to really think about the whole person before you. And the whole plant too, that you're working with.
Dr. Keren Dolan: That's right.
John Gallagher: Yeah. That it's not just the constituents, or the supplements they're taking, or what's in those. It's this whole approach.
Dr. Keren Dolan: That's right, absolutely. It's a systems approach to care, which I have this book, this vitalism book that was my grandmother's. It was like...
John Gallagher: Oh, really?
Dr. Keren Dolan: ... back in the 1800s. I have to tell you, I wish you could see my shelf. I'm so grateful to some of my mentors, that I've been able to get some really old pharmacopeias, and...
Tara Ruth: Oh my God.
Dr. Keren Dolan: ... I love that stuff. I mean, it makes my heart beat. But when I read these, in the 1800s, because there was a lot of agrarian life, a lot of folks on the farm. It was more common to have these, like the books that were put out by physicians for family medicine. Like, "Here's how you take care of your family." And there would be herbal remedies in there, there might be a sunroom. Like, "Here's how you just sit with the windows open and the sun, some mirrors to help you get some really good rays." But then it would also talk about, how do you nourish yourself? Making sure that you're getting food that's actually balanced, that you're getting from these different food groups. You're eating a lot of plants, you're getting a lot of water. This is old knowledge, right?
Tara Ruth: Yeah.
John Gallagher: That's amazing. Because when my son was born, and we've already talked about how I grew up, and I knew enough to know that there were other ways, natural ways of doing things and I wanted to do that. So I'm holding him, and that's why I got in all this in the first place because, you know just said. Like, "Here's how you take care of your family." And it's like, "I was wondering that. How do I take care of this kid? Where's the instruction manual?"
Dr. Keren Dolan: Right?
John Gallagher: "I have no idea how to parent, first of all, that's a whole nother thing. What do I do when he gets sick? How do we," you know. And it's all these questions, which led me to those apprenticeships, and all those classes I took.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Right.
John Gallagher: Not so much to teach people, or later become an acupuncturist, or do all these kinds of things. It was more simply, "How do I take care of and nourish our family?"
Dr. Keren Dolan: That's right.
John Gallagher: And my wife did these same apprenticeships, and we kind of made that family culture. And culture is an interesting word, because that's what my mentor, who Tara met this summer, would use a lot. About, we use that word culture, it has a lot to do with our food and medicine. Because the cultures of our fermented foods, for example, the things that we pass down. And we use that word culture to mean music and art, and all these things. But it really comes down to food.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Yeah.
John Gallagher: I know, that's a big question. We keep giving you these gigantic things...
Dr. Keren Dolan: Yeah, there's like...
John Gallagher: ... that you could teach week-long workshops on, or a semester, or something.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Right, exactly. No, they are really big questions, and they're important questions. And they don't always have simple, straightforward answers. But I'm happy to just share with you, this is just my perspective on how I see it.
John Gallagher: Right.
Dr. Keren Dolan: So the industry-driven side is, "In order to do this research, we need to actually be able to earn some income," in order to cover the costs, because the research costs money. So they'll often do research on specific strains of probiotics that are unique. So it's a variant, that's very specific. And then they will put together some sort of controlled study on the use of that particular strength.
John Gallagher: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Keren Dolan: And so going to, looking at those fears, and traditional, cultured. And different people have different tastes, and that's fine. Some folks, I ask them, "Will you eat this sauerkraut or kimchi?" And they just can't tolerate the sour taste. But they can do really well with a yogurt, or even...
John Gallagher: Miso.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Yeah, miso, right. And miso, great. Or slowly get adapted to kombucha. So these are all important ways that we can find our way back to these fermented traditions that have been really, really nourishing.
John Gallagher: Gosh. And none of these were available when we were growing up in a market.
Dr. Keren Dolan: No.
John Gallagher: And still now, you have to go a food co-op or whatever, or Whole Foods, even. And they'll be fermented foods there. And often local, you're talking about local.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Yeah.
John Gallagher: A lot of local, small cottage industries have developed around... When I travel, I might go into, I'm just saying Whole Foods, just because that's one that's around all over. And I'll notice they'll carry a lot of local things. But it's so easy to make. I mean, anyone with a... You can go to get a cabbage, and if you have a big jar and a cabbage and some kosher salt, you can make sauerkraut.
Dr. Keren Dolan: You ought to be able to, you could. And it's funny because we don't. We really don't do it that much. Honestly, I remember just my first round with kefir, and I got the kefir grains. And I was loving making the kefir, but it's like having another child.
Tara Ruth: Totally.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Really, like you can't go on vacation. It's scary what happens, if you leave that child unattended for too long.
John Gallagher: Or if you make a kombucha, then you get that, it divides itself. And you're just like, "Oh, how do I get rid of this whole... ?"
Dr. Keren Dolan: "How do I do it?" Yeah. So these traditions grew. There are some who've been doing it for generations and generations, so that's another area that I would love to explore more. Is learning how to rebuild those connections, and how to bring that into our family lives so we do it more. But John, I will say, if you do have someone that is in need of some probiotic support, and they aren't able to, maybe because of histamine intolerance or things like that, to really go with fermented foods, I prefer a broad spectrum probiotic. So I usually would go with at least 10 to 14 different strains of lactobacillus and bifidobacterium, in that probiotic.
John Gallagher: Right.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Because people who go with one or two, they just take one or two strains, and they do these high doses. You're really creating your own imbalance in the system.
Tara Ruth: Right.
Dr. Keren Dolan: So I always am a big proponent for kind of broad spectrum systems approach to nourishment.
John Gallagher: I love this.
Tara Ruth: Wow.
John Gallagher: I love this. I'm just reflecting on the amazing information that we just received.
Dr. Keren Dolan: I know, right?
John Gallagher: Thank you.
Tara Ruth: I know, this is very helpful for me. I've taking notes over here.
John Gallagher: Yeah.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Oh, good.
Tara Ruth: Absolutely. And just, again, you're talking about the systems approach, and it makes me think about your work as a functional medicine practitioner. And I feel like functional medicine is another buzzword that gets thrown around a lot these days, but a lot of people don't actually know what it means. So I'm curious, could you share with all of us, what is functional medicine? And how do you use this approach in your practice?
Dr. Keren Dolan: Yeah, so I practice functional nutrition, which is based on a functional medicine model. And that's looking at, basically what are the various inputs, the different factors that go into what helps us to be well? Versus the downstream effects, the symptoms, that end up bringing us in to see a doctor. So for example, the functional medicine model, they will use an example of a tree, ironically, and they'll talk about the branches of the different trees being different branches of medicine. So I have a headache, am I going to go to the neurologist? If I go to the gastroenterologist, they'll be looking at a different part, different factors related to that headache. They're all kind of looking at these different parts of a single person, as if it's a distinct condition.
John Gallagher: Yeah.
Tara Ruth: Oh.
John Gallagher: But not, "Oh, herbal medicine," there's so many people teaching, and so many ways to go about it that yes...
Tara Ruth: That's true.
John Gallagher: ... a lot of herbalists, but it's really refreshing for you. Being a doctor, having a practice and taking... If I lived where you live, in Virginia, you would be my doctor for sure. I would be like.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Oh. I really appreciate that perspective. I think it's true. And I really love that you're pointing out, there are so many different ways to practice herbal medicine. And there are some that do take an approach that's not necessarily one that's looking at the root causes and imbalance. But I'm kind of integrating this all together, I call it a functional phytotherapy, where it's... Ideally, you really want to understand in depth, a person's story. What got that person to where they are today? Going as far back as you can, even preconception. What happened with that person's parents? What things were going on? Because that all plays a role. And when you can have a comprehensive intake, it really helps you identify where those underlying kind of threads are.
John Gallagher: Yeah.
Tara Ruth: Yeah.
John Gallagher: And we often have that on HerbMentor, for example, someone will join and say... And it's just so hard navigating the healthcare system, and I can understand. But when it's like, "Oh, I have this," fill-in-the-blank, "chronic situation." And the best we can do is try to find someone who can do a full intake, somebody who can get to know you. And navigating that in this day and age is challenging, especially financially, it's hard for people. It might not be on insurance, or people don't have insurance. So that's why we try our best for people to see this way of looking at things, and hopefully be able to help themselves as much as possible. And maybe, just maybe, it will lead them, because through us or somebody through us, or they know, to a practitioner such as yourself where they can get that intake that you're talking about.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Yeah, definitely. I agree with you. And it doesn't have to be a functional model or herbal, just as you're saying. There's some clinicians that are really intent on getting a really great clinical history, and a really great intake. And it makes all the difference, especially just being heard. Being heard...
John Gallagher: Yeah, being heard.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Being seen, feeling held. That's the foundation of, to me, real healing.
John Gallagher: And that is an amazing place to wrap it up, I think, for today. Because that was just beautiful.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Oh, good.
John Gallagher: It was beautiful.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Good.
John Gallagher: So Keren, if people want to learn more about you, again. Where can they find you online?
Dr. Keren Dolan: So definitely you can find me at www.nourishwell-us. That's an easy way to do it. Nourishwell.us.
John Gallagher: Nourish well us. I love that.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Yeah. Nourish well, us. That's an easy way. And also through, I have to plug the American Herbalists Guild.
John Gallagher: Please do.
Dr. Keren Dolan: ... AHG, because I am serving on the board there. And happy to be the chair of the board this year.
John Gallagher: Oh, congratulations.
Dr. Keren Dolan: I'm just really thrilled, thanks, about the group that we have. So whether it's me or our amazing group of herbalists, that are registered that you could find them on that website, as well. Please do come check us out.
Tara Ruth: Thank you so much, Keren. It was such a pleasure chatting with you, and I learned so much. Oh my gosh.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Thank you. I really appreciate you.
John Gallagher: We got to have you back some time. There's so much more to talk about.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Oh yeah. Yeah, definitely. These big questions.
John Gallagher: I know. We couldn't help ourselves.
Dr. Keren Dolan: Thank you both so much for what you do, and for how much you offer. I just love your work, and I'm very grateful for both of you. Thank you.
John Gallagher: Thank you.
Tara Ruth: Oh, thank you.
John Gallagher: HerbMentor Radio is written and produced by John Gallagher and Tara Ruth. Sound engineering by Zach Frank. Visit herbmentor-radio.com to subscribe on your favorite podcast app, and for information on how to be part of HerbMentor, your home for herbal education. HerbMentor Radio is a production of The LearningHerbs.com LLC, all rights reserved. Thank you so much for listening.
