From HerbMentor.com, this is Herb Mentor Radio.
You're listening to Herb Mentor Radio on HerbMentor.com. I'm John Gallagher. My guest today is David Winston. David is an herbalist and ethnobotanist with over forty years of training in Cherokee, Chinese, and Western herbal traditions. He's run a clinical practice for over thirty years and is an herbal consultant to physicians throughout North America. He's founded an herbal manufacturing company called Herbalist and Alchemist as well as David Winston's Center for Herbal Studies.
David is author of many books including Adaptogens, Herbs for Strength, Stamina, and Stress Relief. He is also a founding member of the American Herbalist Guild. Speaking of which, you can see David and many other amazing herbalists speak at the two thousand thirteen American Herbalists Guild Symposium this coming November. Visit a h g symposium dot com for information. And finally, you can visit David anytime at herbal therapeutics dot net and herbal studies dot net. David, Winston, welcome.
Thank you. It's wonderful to be here.
So, David, is it true that you started teaching about herbs when you were a teenager?
Yes. Actually, it is. I started studying herbs at a very young age, and, I think I led my first herb walk when I was sixteen years old and, did that for several years. And I think I did my first class when I was about probably somewhere between nineteen and twenty.
It's when I first actually started teaching. And I remember the first time I had to get up in front of a room of people full of people and talk, and I had everything written down, and I lost my place and got incredibly nervous. And that was the last time I ever did that in the sense of writing everything down. I'd like to to know my material and then sort of talk from what I know rather than trying to have a script.
So how did it all start for you? So you're here you are starting to teach at sixty, which meant you must have really had an interest early on. Is this did you have mentors as a child, or is this kinda one of those things that you just kinda followed in your own path?
Well, initially, I had somewhat of an unusual childhood. Let's just put it that way. And I spent a lot of my time out in the woods, and I learned at a pretty young age that there were plants that were edible.
And I remember someone showed me this wonderful tasting plant that and I didn't remember what the name of it was, but it had this wonderful lemon lime flavor. And I always liked things that were tarred. And it turns out that the plant was sheep sorrel.
And I wanted to figure out what it was. And I started looking at plants, and one of my first plant books was Yule Gibbons, his, searching for the wild asparagus.
And I just found it absolutely fascinating that there were edible plants, not things that people were growing, but just you could go out into the woods, and I, you know, grew up gathering wild raspberries and black berries and blueberries and things and strawberries, things like that. That was sort of part of my childhood. But I was fascinated that you could do more, and then it also fascinated me.
Actually, you know, Gil Gibbons book was Stalking the the Wild Asparagus, and then he had another book called Stalking the Healthful Herbs. And those two books were absolutely major influences on me, the idea that you could find medicine out in the world and you could find food out in the world. So what I started doing around the age of thirteen is I had two things going on. Number one, I was also very much into organic agriculture, and there was a a a local man who lived not far from me, and I was friends with his son who was from Germany, and he practiced organic gardening.
And so he taught me about organic gardening, and I started growing, vegetables, and I started growing, herbs as well. And by the time I was thirteen or fourteen, I had a roadside stand. I had two acres under cultivation, and my only power equipment was a rototiller, but everything else was done by hand. And two acres is a lot to do by hand.
Yeah. And I in the summers, I sold organic, vegetables. Oh, wow. I used to go over to the the local market, and I saw what their prices were.
And that's what I would price my organic vegetables at that in that day and age. And at the same time, I became increasingly interested in herbal medicine. And so what I would do is, at that point, I didn't have a mentor, so I would buy every book I could find on herbal medicine, and there weren't very many.
Two of my first, one was, Jethro Claus' Back to Eden, which was, an amazing book, although somewhat flawed, but, of course, I I didn't know the difference. And the other book is a book I'd still recommend today, which was Maud Greaves' Modern Herbal, which, of course, was written in nineteen thirty one. So it's hardly modern anymore, but it's still an incredible book.
And I read these books. I mean, I read them like you would read a novel, and I was fascinated. And, of course, I wanted to find these plants, so I'd go out and try to identify plants. And I taught myself field botany. Now I have to admit, I made more than a few mistakes. Luckily, none of them were fatal, but some of them were or make very funny stories today. I managed to make myself fairly violently ill any number of times.
Oh, got it. What's one time? You gotta tell.
Well, probably the one of the funniest times is I had read about this herb called senna Mhmm.
And, in Jethro Klass' Back to Eden. And, you know, he's talking about how it's just a phenomenal laxative and everything. And I didn't need a laxative, but I had this idea, which interestingly enough, I still have the same idea. And that is before I give somebody something, I actually wanna know the plant.
I wanna know what it does, how it feels, what it does. So I tend to try things even you know, I don't necessarily need them, but I wanna try them. I wanna get a sense of the plan. And so I he doesn't give really clear directions on how much to to take or how frequently to take it, so I made up a batch of it.
Oh, well, I I looked around, and I couldn't find it. And I read that it, you know, it actually came from, Northern Africa. So, obviously, it wasn't gonna find any growing in my, neighborhood. Although, it does turn out that there is an American Senna that did grow in that area, but I never found it at the time.
And so I went to my local health food store, and in the back of the shop, they had select herb teas in boxes, and these were, like, you know, probably been sitting there for years with a layer of dust an eighth of an inch thick on top of them. And I bought it, and I brought it home. And so I proceeded to brew up a really strong batch of this, and I drank it. And this was in the morning, and, nothing happened.
And by late afternoon, nothing had happened. And so I thought, well, I must not have taken enough. Mhmm. Well, I didn't understand that you take a lax have a bowel movement, you know, usually six to eight hours later. So I brewed up another batch, but I made it stronger, and I took a whole lot more of it.
Well, let's put it this way. I know Santa intimately on a gut level.
I spent it was one of those nights that you aren't gonna die, but you just wish you would. And, it was it was pretty miserable, but it gave me an incredible respect for this plant and and what it can do.
And so, yeah, that's one of the the Stories. Didn't didn't manage to kill myself.
Managed to make myself pretty violently ill.
Did you I mean, you practice you're practicing in West Central Jersey. Now do you, do did you grow up around there?
Or Actually, as a young as a younger person, I was in Maryland.
Mhmm. But we moved my family moved to New Jersey when I was about eleven or twelve. Okay. And so, yeah, we were in a part of New Jersey that's now extremely, built up.
But at the time, it was right on the edge. Most of it was still farmland and right on the edge of you know, there was development. So we live right on the in between the two. So we still had land and and things like that, and I spent a tremendous amount of my time out in the woods.
Sounds like my hometown in Jersey.
Learning about learning about plants and exploring, and that was a wonderful part of my childhood.
And everyone, you can tell from our accents that we're from New Jersey. Right?
I mean Actually, I don't have a New Jersey accent.
I don't either. I don't think. But I did grow up there.
I I grew about an hour west of where you are east to where you are right now. I'm due east, I think, in Monmouth County.
Once upon a time, I did have a Maryland accent.
Oh, right. Right. Right. Yeah.
So you, you you so you you teach about or you're inspired or or I should say, you know, influenced, by different styles of medicine, but also, Cherokee, medicine. Is this are you have Cherokee roots, in your heritage?
Yes.
So can you take talk about that?
Well, briefly. I mean, when I was a teenager, I started spending time down in North Carolina with an uncle and an aunt. And I wanna say aunt, it's really a more distant relationship than that. But, and, both of them, were familiar with herbal medicine and Cherokee herbal medicine, and I spent many, many, many years living at their house, you know, back and forth and and learning from them and learning from other elders. And, so, yes, in addition to Cherokee medicine, I also studied with a Chinese doctor who I apprenticed with in New York for several years when I lived in New York.
This would have been back in the mid seventies. Mhmm.
And then I also studied with a brilliant American herbalist named William LeSassier, who is the first person who not only introduced me to Chinese herbs, but the first person who introduced me to the concept of energetics, which is a key to, in my mind, good herbal medicine.
You know?
I grew up in a time where herbal medicine was virtually extinct in North America. I mean, there were a few ethnic communities, certainly Asian American communities and Native American communities and some rural African American communities and probably rural Hispanic communities where herbal medicine continued to be practiced. But mainstream America, herbal medicine just ceased to exist, and it's what I call the herbal dark ages.
And I feel very fortunate that, you know, I happen to be one I guess, one of the people that, you know, helped to, bring about the resurgence of herbal medicine, and many people, you know, did that. People like William LeSassier and Michael Moore and Rosemary Gladstar. Star. These are people who, you know, really inspired, you know, an entire generation of people to to regain and relearn this knowledge. And what has come of this is this remarkable eclectic, and I don't mean eclectic in the sense of the eclectic physicians, but in the definition of the word eclectic meaning the best of each.
We have the American herbal tradition as it exists today. It has to be one of the most vibrant, alive, fascinating traditions that's ever existed because what we have is this amalgamation of TCM, traditional Chinese medicine, Ayurveda, Native American traditions, European phytomedicine, folk medicine, southern folk medicine, Unani Tib, on and on and on, Tibetan medicine, and it's and scientific herbal medicine, and it's all kind of blending together to create this basically new system of medicine that hopefully will take the best of each and create something that is unique and and new.
And so that has been my practice of medicine. I think energetics is one of the keys to really good herbal medicine. So instead of treating diseases, we can treat people.
And so you with this background along with Western science, you're able to kinda it seems like you kinda make you know, have a have a nice way to blend this together.
Well, I agree because science is wonderful. You know, science is a tool. Some people think of it kind of as as a religion, a truth, but science is about finding the truth. Mhmm.
It's a tool to help us to do that. And so science is wonderful. And so, you know, when I talk about herbal medicine, I believe that there's both the art and the science, and they are equally important. You don't want just intuition, and you don't just want clinical trials because clinical trials are often very limited, and the way they're done does not really often replicate the way really good herbal medicine is practiced.
So the idea is to take the best from both. And so we use science, but we use tradition. We use energetics. We use differential diagnostics, and we combine that.
So, you know, Hippocrates said more than two thousand years ago, it's more important to know the person that has the disease than the disease the person has.
And he was right. He was absolutely right. And so it's not like I don't care what disease somebody has if I'm working with somebody. I do wanna know that information, but I'm more interested in the underlying processes that are driving this condition. How can we help this person to regain homeostasis or al the ability to create allostasis in their body, and we'll talk a little bit more about that when we get to adaptogens.
How can we help people to regain their health and not just cover up symptoms?
And good herbal medicine and remember, with good herbal medicine, we're not just talking about herbs. We're talking about all the foundational things. You know, you can give people herbs until the herbs are coming out of their ears. And if you don't deal with the foundation, good diet, healthy lifestyle, you know, sleep, exercise, those are the foundational things.
So anybody who's a good herbalist is off obviously also dealing with those foundational things. You can't avoid doing that. It's essential. And then herbs offer us an incredible way to help alter a person's health in a way that promotes healing and prom promotes prevention, we can do so much.
Also say, David, you're very psychic because you've been able to answer, like, six questions in a row without me actual that I written down that you act me actually asking them. It's very it's very quite talent that you have there.
Thank you. So we were just talking you were talking about, you know, adaptogens.
And you wrote a book called Adaptogens. Well, it's in the title, which is a very which are very important these days. We're very, focused in on them.
So that's why we when we spoke earlier, we thought it'd be a great topic for today to kinda hone in on. So also some herbmentor dot com members, put in some great questions we'll get to a little later. But before we get to that, what are adaptogenic herbs?
Well, you know, it's a it's an awesome question, and it really is the question that caused me to write this book.
And the term adaptogen was coined in the early sixties. The initial work on adaptogenic substances, although the word adaptogen had not been created yet, was, by a Soviet researcher named Lazaroff.
After he sort of stopped doing this work, Now, Brechtman basically Now Breckman basically defined an adaptogen as having three basic qualities. Number one, the substance is relatively nontoxic to the recipient.
So in the normal therapeutic dose, it's nontoxic. That doesn't mean that you necessarily are going to sit there and drink five quarts of, you know, whatever the tea happens to be a day. But in the normal therapeutic dose, it's basically nontoxic. Number two, an adaptogen has nonspecific activity and it acts by increasing resistance of the organism to a broad spectrum of adverse biological, chemical, and physical factors. What does that mean? It means that it overall increases your resistance to stressors, be they physical stress, emotional stress, temperature stress, noise stress. It doesn't matter with the where the stress is coming from, but it increases your ability to deal with these things in an effective and appropriate way.
And number three, they basically help to regulate or normalize organ and system function within the organism. Meaning, they work as what we would call amphoteric.
Now, the term amphoteric is a European well, it's mostly used in the UK, actually, and it means something that normalizes function. So if you give somebody an immune amphoteric, it can be used for somebody with a excessive immune response, somebody with a deficient immune response, or somebody who has both, which would be most autoimmune diseases where you have both a hypo and hyper immune response all at the same time.
So that's an immune amphoteric.
Adaptogens tend to be systemic amphoteric, meaning they help normalize function overall, although not specifically for a specific organ. So if we looked at, amphoteric to the female reproductive system, we have an herb such as chitavary, which actually might be an adaptogen, but we we're not a hundred percent sure about that at this point. But, so adaptogens don't tend to necessarily do this to every organ system, but they do it to the organism in general. So the this was the initial definition of an adaptogen.
So based on that, and mostly Soviet research, although there's also some Chinese research and more modern, there's Indian research.
Based on that, there are certain number of herbs that we can pretty much say are absolutely adaptogens.
What started to happen though is people, especially in the herbal community and also in the scientific community, started to say that anything that seemed to help improve stress response was an adaptogen. Now things can reduce help stress response for various reasons. They can do it through this so called adaptogenic effect, but they could also do it because they help relieve stress, meaning they're unnerving.
And so we started to see articles in the literature claiming things like, oh, some of the more outrageous ones. We've seen articles claiming that spirulina is an adaptogen.
We've seen articles claiming that cranberries are an adaptogen.
They're not. They're absolutely not.
So so it's gonna be a buzzword. Right?
Is you're you're Well, it it that's the problem.
It started to become something that people would say, and I and I all the time, I have to tell you how many conferences I go to when somebody's doing a class on adaptogens, and I look at their notes, and I see plants in there that are absolutely not adaptogens like maca being claimed you know, people claiming that they're adaptogens.
And so this one of the things that drove me to write this book is I became frustrated because I think adaptogens are really important. I think they're an incredibly important class of herbs that we need. I mean, has there ever been a time in the world that people are more stressed out than now?
So I think that they are absolutely essential and important, but I think we need to be clear about our definitions. If we can't even communicate amongst ourselves in the herbal community as to what is and is not an adaptogen, how are we going to share this information with the rest of the world? And if we start making claims that are not true Mhmm. Eventually that's going to come back and bite us.
And is another an area that gets confused as well or like like tonics are they the same as tonics?
Well here's the thing, tonics can mean a lot of different things. So in Chinese medicine, you have chi tonics. Many chi tonics are adaptogens, but not all chi tonics are adaptogens.
So so some things are, some things aren't, because the concept of a ketonic is different than the concept of an adaptogen. In Ayurveda, you have the concept of Rasayanas, rejuvenative remedies. Some of the Rasayanas turns out like at Ashwagandha are indeed adaptogens, but you have other Rasayanas such as eclipta, which definitely is not an adaptogen.
So other traditional traditional systems in medicine have always had this concept of herbs that were tonifying, but that does not necessarily mean they fit the full definition of an adaptogen because the definition has evolved. So on those initial three points that I made, there are several others. It turns out that adaptogens work through the HPA axis and the SAS. Mhmm.
Alright. The HPA axis is the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis. This is the master control, endocrine control in the body. And the HPA axis controls all endocrine function, much immune function, although there's much of the immune functions also in the gut, and, much of nervous system function.
So this is one of the master control systems of the body, and the SAS is the sympathoadrenal system, which is basically your fight or flight syndrome. It's the interface between the sympathetic nervous system and the adrenals.
So for something to be an adaptogen, its primary mode of activity has to be through the HPA axis and SAS, which means spirulina cannot be an adaptogen because it doesn't affect those systems. Cranberries can't be an adaptogen because they don't affect that system. Eclipt is not an adaptogen. It does not affect those systems.
So now we have a scientific basis for what's happening.
Even more recent research by a researcher named Panosian, who is the number one researcher on adaptogens now in the world, unfortunately, he only researches three plants.
And so all of his research is on rhodiola, schizandra, I think, and eleuthero. I think those are the only three he focuses in on. So it it definitely has increased the research on those three plants, but it it doesn't really broaden it out. But he he is the number one researcher on this topic, and he has discovered that not only do adaptogens work through the HPA axis and SAS, and by the way, he's the one who discovered that, He's also discovered now that adaptogens even work on a cellular level, and they affect three different types of cell signaling compounds. The first are basically what are called heat shock proteins, and these are basically released when there is tremendous stress including elevation of body temperature, say, a fever.
And the heat shock proteins basically prevent the, elder when we're chronically stressed out, we'll develop elevated cortisol levels. And what that does is downregulate mitochondrial function in the cell, and the mitochondria are the engines of your cells. So your mitochondria aren't working. You have no energy.
So, basically, these two heat shock proteins plus something called a forkhead protein and something called neuropeptide y, Adaptogens up regulate all of these. And so what they do is they prevent, basically, cortisol or stress induced mitochondrial dysfunction. And think about conditions such as fibromyalgia Mhmm. Myalgia Mhmm. And chronic fatigue immune deficiency syndrome.
What's going on?
Stress induced mitochondrial dysfunction is sort of at the root of these conditions. So, of course, that means adaptogens are absolutely indicated as part of a protocol for either one of those diseases, those conditions.
And neuropeptide y is even more interesting because it has been shown that neuropeptide y increases, neuronal plasticity, and it allows our not only our brain, but our nervous system to have a more appropriate response to stress and be more flexible in its response to stress.
So what we now know is adaptogens work through these two control systems through, you know, the control endocrine nervous system immune function, as well as a whole other a lot of other things. They also regulate a whole range of metabolic regulators.
Adaptogens affect cytokines, catecholamines, cortisol, serotonin, nitrous oxide, corticofen, corticotropin releasing factor, sex hormones. I mean, it is the effect is systemic because remember, the HPA axis is affecting endocrine function. That means all of your hormones.
It's affecting cellular mechanisms, so all these, cell regulating compounds. So the effect is systemic. It is a broad reaching effect, and many, many herbs have significant effects on the body. Beneficial effects on the body, but they certainly don't fit this definition.
You you know, just a question that popped in my head having studied acupuncture was that I always wondered when I'm in, you know, sitting in acupuncture school and and and and they you know, of course, we're talking about chi, right, in acupuncture school. And then I'm in my classes in in, the western medicine classes, and they're talking about, like, you were just talking about mitochondria and about, like, you know, energy for in in that cellular level.
Where's the connection, you know, like, between like, so we can say that it's all, you know, ATP energy or it's, you know, and all in that cellular level, but there's also the chi thing going on because I know that if I do certain points, it seems to increase in energy.
So what about, you know, that connection along with these adapted adaptogens? Because it sounds like that, like, they're really addressing at that systemic level.
Is that also helping the chi?
Absolutely.
And I would even go as far to say a certain adaptogens may even enhance Jing, which is in the CCM, the life force. So they help they they increase chi.
And as I said, many of your Chinese chi tonics turn out to be adaptogens.
Asian ginseng, American ginseng, which, of course, is used in Chinese medicine, Schisandra.
You have things like, Codinopsis, Dongsheng.
These are all, adaptogens.
And so and I think I think really what you have is there's not a perfect overlap as to, you know, what is chi? Whenever you try to take Chinese concept, as I always find it funny when I'm teaching my students about the Chinese organs, and they're like, you know, and they're assuming when you oh, it affects the liver. Well, the Chinese liver is not the Western liver.
Right.
They're really different. Some of the organs have significant overlap, but some have significant differences.
I think the the beauty of the Chinese system is that they're not looking at isolated organs.
And the more Western science has studied the human organism, the more we find that these Chinese concepts are valid in that for instance, Chinese medicine says the heart store shen, which is, people translate as spirit, but I would say a better translation would be consciousness and emotion.
So we now know that the heart is an endocrine organ, and it is deeply affected by stress.
And we know that, basically, the heart has receptors for all sorts of neurochemicals and hormones.
And so this idea that, you know, each organ is separate, the way I learned anatomy and physiology when I went to college was, you know, the heart's the heart and the lungs of the lungs, and, yeah, they interact, but, you know, you learn each thing separate. And, of course, you the understanding is when you learn physiology, they're not exact they're not separate. But the Chinese concept is is nothing's really separate.
Everything interacts with everything, and that is the reality.
When you start looking at, like, the immune system Mhmm.
Where does the immune system live? Right. Everywhere?
It's the it's the lymphatics all the way to the, to the gut, to the to the intestinal microbiome, which isn't even you.
The the integumentary system?
Oh, yeah.
It's everything.
To me to me, it's it's absolutely fascinating. But, you know, I think, it's answer the question, you know, I think we can't get an exact overlap. Just like when you look at Cheatonix, they don't exactly overlap with the concept of an adaptogen, which is a Western scientific concept, but and it doesn't totally overlap with the idea of a Rasayana, which is a Ayurvedic concept, but they do overlap. You know, they're not identical, but they do overlap to some degree.
And so when we talk about chi, are we talking about cellular messenger, you know, regulatory, compounds? Probably. But I don't think you're ever gonna say this equals this. I think this relates to, you know, these processes perhaps is about as close as we're gonna get.
And, but it you know, it's fascinating because in Chinese medicine, not to go on too far into that, they've always had this idea of systemic function. So you have an organ like the triple burner heater warmer, whichever Mhmm.
Translation you want. And, you know, in the West, they say, well, such a thing doesn't exist. Well, what they're talking about is the physiology of fluid metabolism.
Okay. Right. Exactly.
It's a you know, it's remarkable. And, of course, in the west, we didn't understand that for much, much longer.
You say in your book, you say Western medicine aims to destroy external disease causing pathogens and Ayurveda and Chinese medicine aimed at strengthening the vitality and innate bodily intelligence within a person by promoting internal balance.
Correct. Yeah.
So you open your book with a quote from from James Duke that all plants contain adiogenic tonic compounds because plants have to contend with a good deal of stress themselves.
Is can you explain this? Is this kind of, you know, kind of give a good metaphor to what we're talking?
Well, yes and no. In in that sense, I mean, all plants do, have the ability to adapt to stress. They have to. That's how they survive. But that doesn't make all plants adaptogens.
Alright? So we wanna make a a clear definition that all plants have beneficial well, not all plants. There are plants that are quite toxic.
But all of the medicinal herbs that we are working with in general have beneficial effects, and so some of them, you know, may increase diuresis. Some of them may stimulate digestion. Some of them may enhance, a phase one or phase two liver detoxification.
Other things may down regulate a excessive immune response or promote immune competence.
Other things may be adaptogenic, which means they have this overall, restorative effect literally on the entire organism.
But the the fascinating thing is is and I was mentioning before is like a Pinosian who's doing wonderful research, he really is focusing in on three plants. And to a great degree, that's because I believe, and I may be miss this may not be true, but I think a lot of his research is sponsored by a company that manufactures a product that contains those three plants, which a product that contains those three plants, which doesn't make the research any less valid. But I think I think the the issue is one of the issues is is that there's probably only about a dozen plants we actually know are adaptogens.
And then there's probably about another ten or twelve that I believe probably are adaptogens.
Then there's probably a list of thirty or forty that various people have claimed to be adaptogens, but there's little to no science behind it.
And I suspect that if there was more active research, we would find out that there are probably I don't think adaptogens are gonna be like the, you know, something where, you know, there'll be thousands of them. But I suspect that there's way more than we know.
But I also find it interesting how often people are making claims like nettle seed is an adaptogen. Nettle seed is the greatest kidney trophorestorative we have. I cannot say it's not an adaptogen. I can say I've given it to a lot of people, and I've never noticed anything that I would consider an adaptogenic effect.
Nutritive? Yes. Nutritive is not an adaptogen. So maca is nutritive, and maca in high doses seems to enhance reproductive function, but isn't an adaptogen?
I can't say that it's not, but I, at this point, would say I don't really think that it is. It's more of a nutritive food.
So there are many things that people are claiming are adaptogens that aren't, but we we have a, you know, fairly small list. But, you know, we do have plants that there is, you know, really a good deal of evidence showing that whether it be American ginseng, ashwagandha, Asian ginseng, and by the way, it doesn't matter whether it's Korean or or Chinese, same plant, Cordyceps fungus, danshin, codenopsis, eleuthero, licorice, reishi, rhodiola, and schizandra. These are definitely adaptogens in my mind. And then we have a bunch of plants that are probably adaptogens. That includes things like holy basil and jiao goulan, which is a Chinese herb. And then we have things like, some of the Aurelia manchurica from, from Russia and the Ayurvedic herb, Gudducci.
And, perhaps, there's some Chinese herbs like marinda, the Ayurvedic herb, chitavari.
They may be adaptogens, but there's simply just not the level of evidence that we can sit there and say, absolutely, it is. Mhmm. So one of the things I think is really important, if we want to continue you know, one of the things that's happened in the United States, you know, as one of the people who was sort of there in the beginning of this herbal renaissance, in some ways, I can say we've been more successful than we ever thought.
I know I don't get those phone calls anymore. What's this plan? Echinacea, you know? I don't get those calls.
Everybody in the United States has heard of echinacea. Everybody's heard of Saint John's wort. Everybody's heard of turmeric and milk thistle. So what happened is certain herbs have become popular, but herbal medicine has not.
Most Americans think herbal medicine is taking Saint John's wort instead of Prozac. That's not herbal medicine. That's the allopathic use of herbs. And as I said earlier, good herbal medicine, we treat people, not diseases.
So, ultimately, while in some ways we've been successful, in other ways, we still have so much work to do. You know, herbs Mhmm. And and I, you know, I am a passionate advocate for herbs. Why?
Because I have seen what they can do. In thirty seven years of clinical practice, I have seen and, you know, many of the people that I work with, they've been to everybody. They've been to every doctor in the world. They've been to to all sorts of other specialists and other tradition you know, other, you know, types of complimentary alternative medicine.
And so when the herbs work where nothing else has, don't tell me it's placebo. Because if it was placebo, placebo would have kicked in when that person, you know, was going to a practitioner they actually believed in, you know. Right. So the reality is is that herbal medicine is doesn't have all the answers. No one has all the answers. And personally, I've always felt the combination of orthodox medicine and traditional medicine, and herbal medicine is traditional, and what the allopathic system is orthodox medicine.
The combination is really the true win win for the patient. When you have a good physician who is open to somebody who, you know, understands good herbal medicine and they can work together for the patient, I always thought to think that that is really the best, option that you can find.
But having said that, we have a lot of work to do. The vast majority of Americans still don't herbal medicine are. They don't understand how to appropriately use herbs. You know, they often go to, you know, read something online.
They read an article. They go to a health food store where they may be talking to someone who knows a lot, or they may be talking to someone who knows absolutely nothing. Mhmm. We have a lot of work to do.
And so if we're gonna do that, we, as a community, the herbal community, needs to, number one, I think, get our act together in the sense of having some consensus about what do these things mean. And the reality is is the term adaptogen is well defined. So let's understand what it means. Let's use it appropriately.
Let's learn to use the adaptogens appropriately. And so what another thing that happens is people think, oh, they should have an adaptogen. So we'll just pick one.
Mhmm. That's exactly what I was gonna ask about because, you know, what you're just saying here matching medicines, you know, the the the good herbal medicine trees to people, not the diseases. I was just thinking, you know, everyone would just like us to go, David, tell me the top three adaptogens and exactly how people should use them so they can, you know, help their stress.
And so this is where I think we're going here is that I'd love you to get into, like, how do you do people approach these approach adaptive?
Yeah.
Well, I could tell you probably the best three adaptogens for you if I knew you.
Right.
But I can't say the best three adaptogens for everybody because we have adaptogens that are common. We have adaptogens that are stimulating. Mhmm. We have adaptogens that are heating.
We have adaptogens that are cooling. We have adaptogens that are drying. We have adaptogens that are moistening. This is the energetics.
These are the the qualities of the herbs plus the energetics of the person you're giving it to. So what you really wanna do is and I'm not saying everybody needs to take an adaptogen, but when you wanna give an adaptogen to somebody, it's not just take any adaptogen.
It's taking which adaptogen best fits the person and their symptom picture that you are actually working with. And one of the other things that I reasons I wanted to write this book was not only to really define what adaptogens are, but was to create a sort of materia medic of adaptogens that helps people to understand the difference between them. Which one is better for me? Why would I use this one over that one? Mhmm. And I, you know, I break it down to the point of, you know, I certain I think certain adaptogens are better for people of certain ages.
I don't think it's so much male or female, but I think it has a lot to do with age. And, again, whether somebody is really tired, depleted, deficient, or somebody has an excess personality and they're really hyper and, you know, anxious and irritable, you're gonna get a different adaptogen.
If somebody has a dry cough, dry mouth, dry skin, vaginal dryness, you're gonna get a different adaptogen than somebody who has excessive mucus and postnasal drip and, you know, where you have too much moisture, too much dampness. And so you're you're really gonna look at the adaptogen to fit the person you're treating.
Do you find that when folks come to your clinic, there come many of them probably coming with an acute situation. Well, that that's chronic but maybe, you know, showing some symptoms that is it usually a combination of treating an acute situation along with then, you know, giving having them take an adaptogen for the long term?
Well, first off, I should say, just so I don't get inundated, I'm not taking new patients at this point.
Well, when you put your clinic when you But but when I the people I see who many most cases I've been seeing for you know, I have I have patients that I've been seeing for twenty five years.
Mhmm.
But when I see somebody, most of the time these days, what I'm seeing are people who have chronic disease.
And so, you know, if somebody most of the people aren't coming because they have a cold. Then we'll we'll call me up and they'll say, should I do what I did last time? And I go, yeah. Do what you did last time.
Rest. Because it worked last time, it'll probably work this time unless the presentation is remarkably different. Right. But, but generally speaking, there are people who are coming again, chronic degenerative diseases.
These are people with autoimmune diseases. These are people with arthritis. These are people with, you know, it might be, things like benign prostatic hyperplasia.
It may be things like migraines. It, you know, there there are things of that nature, you know. But the other side of it is you get people who are basically healthy who wanna keep stay healthy. So you have somebody who has this really bad family history of heart disease, and they wanna be healthy and not develop heart disease. Or you have somebody who, you know, has really severe seasonal allergies, and you put them on protocols and get them to the point where they don't have allergies anymore.
Wow. Wow.
And so whether adaptogens are appropriate depends on the specificity of the case. And so you might you might give somebody an adaptogen because, as I said, just something before with chronic fatigue immune deficiency syndrome or fibromyalgia, I will always be using an adaptogen.
Somebody who is being treated for cancer, I would give them adaptogens.
But somebody with arthritis, maybe yes, maybe no. And then there are some adaptogenic herbs that also have benefit for arthritis that have nothing to to do with them being an adaptogen. Say, something like ashwagandha, which is anti also anti inflammatory and also relieves musculoskeletal pain.
K.
So I might use it not because it's an adaptogen.
I might use it more for its other uses. On the other hand, the fact that it's an adaptogen probably wouldn't hurt.
Okay. Okay. So, you know, be it's like, you know, we could go on and off forever, but before I mean, I have tons of questions, but I wanted to get some questions that that folks, emailed in. Certainly.
And so speaking of ashwagandha, one of the questions just happened to be, does ashwagandha have androgen effects, and would it be indicated in women who have high testosterone levels? I know it's a little different topic, but we're getting to questions here.
Well, does it have overt androgenic effects? There are studies showing that ashwagandha enhances, testosterone production in men and enhances sperm count and sperm motility. So in men, it indeed does that. Yet, at the same time, ashwagandha is widely used in Ayurvedic tradition.
It's used in women who are pregnant.
So it I would not say it has overtly androgenic effects. Now would I use it in a woman who has high levels of So let's say you have a woman with PCOS, which usually has high levels of androgen.
I would probably, would not necessarily choose to use ashwagandha unless it was really indicated. And the other key to using herbs is is in every tradition that I'm aware of, every traditional medicine, they use combinations.
Formulas are normal. Using herbs as simples is really unusual and rare in traditional medicine. So the reality is is if you're just giving somebody ashwagandha as a simple or in a capsule, whatever, that is an, very nontraditional use. Normally, it would be part a small part of a larger formula.
And if you understand how to use herbs well, you get a synergistic effect. And by the way, there is tons of research over the last ten years showing this idea of synergy. The idea that skillfully combining herb a, b, and c together is not just one plus one plus one. So, you know, if you let's say, there there's Chinese herb Angelica decurica, and it is often given with another herb called choroidalis.
And it turns out that adding the angelica de churica to the choroidalis increases the pain relieving effects of the second herb dramatically.
And so this was always a traditional combination.
So when synergy, one plus one doesn't equal two, one plus one equals three. So you get this synergistic effect. And this has always been the belief in herbal medicine, but up until about ten years ago, there was no proof. And in the last ten years, there is tons of proof showing that this idea of synergy really exists. And so you basically if you understand the plants you're using by combining the appropriate plants together, there's things actually that create almost an anti synergy. There's things that actually inhibit things. So one plus one equals one.
So you don't wanna do that.
And, you know, I see so many of the products in the health food stores. I know what they did. They got somebody who's a who put the formula together. All they did is look at research studies and said, this herb worked, this herb worked, this herb worked, this herb worked, this individual herbs and threw them together in a formula. And I'm looking at the formula going, oh, this is bad. You know, this doesn't make any sense whatsoever because they don't understand. They're assuming that there's an innate synergy with everything, and there isn't.
Which which is interesting, like, because Linda and her and this question here, she's interested in keeping herself strong and healthy. She's fifty five, and she says she wants to know any specific adaptogens for that and also about, is it a bad idea to take more than one at a time or is it better to do the rotation? So I can see what you're saying here is that, gosh. How so how could someone like Linda find a way to find an answer to find the the herbs that the adaptogens that match best for her and then knowing which ones might work together when when someone's out there and they're just wondering, you know, without is there people they need? You know, or I mean, it is would would your book help folks kinda hone in on that better or you know what I mean? Like, to get help?
Yeah. Well, I mean, as I said before, that's one of the reasons I wrote the book is that I give people I I explain sort of where I use each one and why it's used that way. So that would be one way of doing it, certainly, to get a better sense of think of it as learning the personality of the herb.
Mhmm.
You have a personality, and each herb has a personality. And so you learn the personality of the plant and say, does this match me? Mhmm. Does this match up with me?
And so if you see that a plant is a calming adaptogen and you are already pretty laid back and, you know, you're not the kind of person that needs to be more calm, then you say, no. That's not the one for me. Now in Linda's case, she's fifty five. That gives me some information.
But fifty five, I know people who are fifty five and absolutely vital and energetic, and I know people who are fifty five and depleted.
I don't know whether she is, you know, sort of a a person that is more on the hyper side or or hypo in the sense of, the nervous system and stress. I don't know those factors.
So it'd be hard to predict this.
Say more hypo.
So if she was more hypo and she, say, fifty five, let's say maybe she has some dryness, maybe a little bit of, you know, dry mouth, maybe I could see that.
Fifty five, you know, maybe perimenopausal, or maybe she's already gone through menopause.
Maybe either, you know, could be a little bit of, like, vaginal dryness, something like that. So then now we're starting to and then this is all hypothetical. I know nothing about it. But but, you know, now we're starting to say, okay. So maybe something like American ginseng, which is mildly stimulating.
It's moistening.
It's nourishing and tonifying, and I generally don't use American ginseng for people who are really young. For somebody who's healthy in their teens and twenties, they don't need American ginseng. They still have that vital energy. They have their chi and jing pretty much intact. And so, like, for instance, with the red ginseng, I tend to use that for people who are, you know, sixty five and older, unless it's somebody with, like, chronic fatigue immune deficiency syndrome where they're literally in bed all day and the big event of the day is getting up, going to the bathroom, and getting back in bed.
You know, so somebody who has totally depleted energy, I might use, Asian ginseng. But, generally, that's for older people. And the American ginseng, I use for people in, like, you know, late forties through early sixties who still have a lot of their vitality, but are starting to you know, that's starting to fade a little bit. They're noticing that they get, you know, cold more easily. You know, they get chilled more easily.
They've got some dryness issues. They they need something to nourish them and and still, you know, help them to, to function, but they don't really need the intense heat that comes with something like, red chai Chinese ginseng.
Okay.
You know, there I just say that folks, when you answered ask your questions, a lot of if I'm not addressing your question, it's probably because we've answered it already, at some point. In some lot of these, we have. But there are parts here. Someone asked, have people have you have you found that people have an allergy sensitivity to ashwagandha as it's in the nightshade family?
Well, that's an interesting question, and actually there was one question you asked me before that I didn't get to answer. I forgot. So I wanna go back for just a minute. And that was, Linda also asked, is it better to, you know, like, rotate them? And the answer to that is no. Right.
Not at least in the short term. I don't believe in that. What I I do believe in is if you have some of this chronic disease like cancer or, chronic viral disease like hepatitis c, I do rotate formulas because I believe that the virus or the cancer cell can become sort of, resistant to what you're doing. So I do rotate things on a monthly or six week basis.
But if you're if you're she's trying to stay healthy, she doesn't need to rotate it unless things change.
So if all of a sudden she realizes, you know, she's taking American ginseng for a while now, again, I'm not recommending she just take American ginseng. The best thing would be to go to a clinical herbalist and do a whole protocol that doesn't just address one thing. It addresses all your issues. By the time you're fifty five, your digestive fire is is is starting to to get lower, and your circulation may not be as good.
You wanna, you know, keep an eye on the person's blood sugars and and blood pressure. So you'd be better off getting a nice formula, and American ginseng would probably be part of it. And generally speaking, when I put people on long term formulas, these are sort of, you know, constitutional formulas, I usually change them every four to six months because that's how long it takes for significant change to occur. Wow.
So I would readdress a formula after four to six months. And, I mean, if somebody has a problem, you would readdress it right away. But if everything's going well, you give it time to to work, and then you reevaluate and see what's changed and what's new and how you wanna reevaluate. So, hopefully, that answered her question.
And then the question with Ashwagandha is interesting. First off, it brings up the whole idea of nightshade sensitivity. And it so so happens that, I actually worked with a guy at Rutgers, Gene Childers, who came up with all this stuff about nightshade sensitivity, and he wrote a book on it back in the early seventies.
And, initially, he thought it was about three percent of the population that night stage sensitivity, and then eventually he got to the point where he thought it was ten percent of the population. And then by the end, he kinda came back down, said that the number of people with nightshade sensitivity is probably significantly less than one percent.
So all I'm gonna say is nightshade sensitivities are real, but they are also not common. So there's a lot of people who think nightshade sensitivities are more common than they are. Now if you are sensitive to nightshades, if you truly are, then you absolutely should avoid them. The chemical, solacidine, I believe it's called, that supposedly causes sensitivity does not is not in ashwagandha.
So theoretically speaking, that would mean somebody who has a nightshade sensitivity should not react to ashwagandha. But if you have somebody with a true nightshade sensitivity, I would be cautious.
You know? So if you're somebody who really indeed has a nightshade sensitivity, I would you know, if you're gonna give them ashwagandha, I'd give them a small dose and keep an eye on it. And if they react, take them off of it.
Okay.
But theoretically speaking, people shouldn't react. And I can't tell you how many people I've talked to who think they have nightshade sensitivities, and then I ask them about it and they find out that they're reading all sorts of things that are nightshades that they didn't know were nightshades and, you know, and it actually had very little to do with that at all.
But French fries are okay.
Well, yeah. They're not no. They're not a nice chicken.
Oh, okay.
They are, of course.
She also asked about, eleuthero and, can you take that for a good period of time or can you need a rest every once in a while?
You can take most adaptogens for good periods of time and I don't really believe this idea that you have to take a vacation from things. You know?
Except your stress.
Well, yeah, it would be nice. But I don't really think that that's in most cases necessary. Although, you know, would I have somebody take eleuthero for ten years in a row? No.
I probably wouldn't because I don't think they necessarily need it. Eleuthero is one of your least tonifying adaptogens. It is most appropriate for people who are relatively young or very healthy and just I I you know, where do I use this? You have somebody who basically is healthy, who's got a project at work there where they're basically working crazy hours for a period of, you know, a couple weeks or a month or two, it could be really useful there.
You have somebody who basically takes care of themselves, but it's finals time in college and they're pulling all nighters. There, it's useful. The thing that people need to understand is adaptogens do not replace adequate sleep.
You can take all the adaptogens in the world. And if you're only getting five hours sleep at night, they're not gonna help you. And in fact, under those circumstances, adaptogens can actually be problematic because it'll help you to go longer before you crash.
But when you crash, it's gonna be bad. So don't use adaptogens in in in the think I'm eating a really bad diet. It's all fast food. I don't get enough sleep. I don't exercise.
I smoke. I do all this stuff, all these bad things, and think that taking adaptogen is going to, you know, make up for those things. It will not. Alright? It just may help cover them up so you can keep doing what's bad for a longer period of time, and, actually, the end result is actually worse. So adaptogens are phenomenally useful. I think they are appropriate for many people, not all, but do not think that they can be used instead of living a healthy life.
Can they help with, frame? Wanna know about thinning bone density?
Adaptogens per se do not have any effect on reduced bone density, but there are wonderful things that do. I use a formula that combines, nettle leaf, horsetail, oat straw, black pepper, alfalfa, and this profoundly enhances bone density. Mhmm. It can prevent osteoporosis. It helps fractures to heal in half the time that they usually take.
It's remarkable.
Can can can people find formulas like that that you do on the herbal therapeutics dot net site?
Or No.
They would that formula is one made by my company, Herbalist and Alchemist, and which if you hadn't asked me that, I wouldn't said, you know, because people could make it themselves, obviously.
But Sure.
Sure.
But, yeah, I'd, on Herbal Therapeutics, which there is a site, but then we're gonna have a new site very soon, the same same address, but better site.
That's basically where you can get, there's articles written by me that you can download. There's articles from my library, which I have, one of the largest private herbal research libraries in North America, a little bit of a bibliophile. So we have about nine thousand books and from fifteen fifty to current and somewhere around fifteen to twenty thousand articles on file. And so, you know, some of the cream of the crop we have on the website, people can download those for free, and it lists information about my classes and and all sorts of things like that. And then in addition, there's the, herb studies dot net site, which is, for my school, which is also a a site with lots of information.
And I should let people know that I even have a blog on Facebook. I personally don't have anything on Facebook, but I have a blog where I do information about herbs and pictures of herbs and things like that every week.
And and and they can link to that from herbal therapeutics dot net?
Yeah. I think, I think they could link to that. Yeah.
So before I wanna ask you a few more questions about this, about your school and stuff. But, but firstly, if you were to kinda, you know, wrap up your thoughts about or, like, if you're doing a talk on adaptogens and all, how would you usually do that? How would you, you know, kinda tie it together?
Well, I think the important thing actually, I think most of the important things I've actually said. I I think the thing that I want people to understand is that adaptogens are, I believe, a remarkably useful category of herbs. I think they can be used in many different ways.
I think many people, not all, but many people could, benefit significantly from having adaptogens in their life. But I want people to understand it's not a one size fits all thing. The dose, the which adaptogen, which other herbs, and in my book, I talk about companion plants. So we have things like nervines, which I think are really good companion plants to adaptogens, and nervines are herbs like chamomile and linden flower and skullcap and fresh oat, and these are the herbs. Nervines, a lot of people sometimes in the herbal community, they're not people aren't real precise with language, but a lot of people think nervines and sedatives are kind of the same thing. Sedatives sedate.
Nervines are the calming herbs that nourish and strengthen the nervous system. So people are under stress, so you have the adaptogen, but combining them with nervines makes a wonderful combination.
And so to understand that these things are often used literally think of them being used in concert with other herbs that would be appropriate to the person. And the more that your listeners learn about herbal medicine, they don't have to become herbalists, but the more that they learn and the more that they educate themselves, they can then start to make really great choices as to what they're gonna use in their life. And if they need professional help, you know, I'd recommend somebody go to the American Herbalist Guild website and see if there's a clinical herbalist near you, you know, in your neighborhood, that you could then consult with, especially if you have something that's, you know, more significant.
You know, you mentioned, you know, matching herbs to people. It's something I like to do on this this podcast. One of its purposes is to match, listeners to their mentors and to the people that teach and you do have, that of the site on herbal studies dot net. Can you tell us about the training program you do? I mean, it's the the the two it's like a two year course. Right?
And it's a two year program and as of about seven years ago, it became not only a live class, and so the class is in Northwestern New Jersey, and we've literally we had people driving once a week, and the class is on Tuesdays from five to ten. We had people driving from, West Virginia, Virginia. I mean, we had people driving five hours to come to a five hour class. I thought they were out of their minds, but they were doing it.
We had people relocate to the area so they could do the program. Well, the beauty of it is is that we now the class is both live, so people who are within commuting distance, and I would say that would be up to, you know, maximum two hours. I mean, if somebody's really, you know, wants to go further, they could. But, and then the class is also live online.
Nice.
So we have people now. We have students who are all not only all over the entire United States, but Canada, England, Ireland, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Australia.
And, of course, the program goes on there. It's live. So, you know, the people in England, their program, instead of five to ten at night, it's ten to three in the morning.
And, what most of those people do, we get we make special arrangements. They log on at ten, and a lot of them log off around midnight or eleven, and then they watch the rest of the class in the archive. Mhmm. Because the beauty of the class is it's all filmed.
So and this is this is much, much higher level than you get with Skype or something. This is real this is real the real deal stuff. And so it's real video. So the beauty is the entire class gets archived. So if somebody misses a class, couple two days later, it's up in the archive. They can watch the entire class so you don't have to miss a class even if you're in class and you happen to be ill one day or you're you're going vacation that week or something like that. The class is a two year program.
It is an intense program where we teach people both what I would call the art and the science of herbal medicine.
We focus in on materia medica, that's the materials of herbs, the materials of medicine, the plants.
You know, I teach many years in in the UK, and I am always amazed at how much they spend a lot of time on Western biological sciences, which is good. My students, I have a prerequisite of college level anatomy and physiology, So you need to come with that. Mhmm.
But beyond that, our focus is the plants, is knowing the plants and knowing them in incredible detail.
And, so it's a two year program, as I said. The next program, which starts September two thousand fourteen, and we're already taking applications now, the next program will be the last program where I'm the primary teacher.
And when that program is done, I'll have been teaching this class for thirty six years. Wow. And so, I'm looking to have some of my other the other teachers that teach little parts of the program take on a larger role.
But, this next program, I'm sure, will be very full. But, it's a great class. And and then we also offer two one year additional programs. One's called the therapeutics program, and one's called the graduate program. They meet monthly.
And, basically, the idea is to give people the training so that they can become a clinical herbalist. Right. You know, where we we give people a taste of verbal pharmacy and field botany and and and things like that because we want them to be well rounded. But the idea here is to train people to be clinical herbalists.
Gosh. I think I didn't even have to leave New Jersey, and I did.
That sounds amazing. And so this could lead people towards A H G, professional membership.
Mhmm.
That's fantastic. And I'm just looking here on the site at herbal studies studies dot net, and it's just the curriculum and everything is as well presented here, and it's just very thorough and very exciting. So I I highly recommend this to folks. This sounds great.
And so let's see here.
The AHG Symposium is coming up, the American Herbalist Guild. What are you teaching there? What's what's that like at that?
Well, it's a great conference. It's it's, you know, there are many different conferences, and they're all really there's the International Orb Symposium that Rosemary Glasser puts on. And, actually, Rosemary and my wife, Donna Brian Winston put on that conference, and and, Jeff Carpenter, the they they put that conference on.
I'm sorry.
Gotcha. That that is the that conference is probably the biggest party of of all the conferences.
It sure was.
Just it's it's it's like, I don't even know how to describe it. It's it's an extravaganza conference. It's it's amazing and and very worth going to. And then you have other conferences like the Medicines from the Earth conference in, North Carolina Mhmm. And the American Herbal Scale conference, which tend to be more clinically oriented. Not that you can't get that at the international, but but there, it's it's a broader range of things. And these tend to be more clinical conferences for people who I would say, you know, are either student herbalists or clinical herbalists, and they're they're wonderful.
And so as to what I'm teaching there, good question.
I Something really great.
Something, something hopefully really good. But, I actually don't recall what I am teaching, at that conference.
Well, I can see that you'll be teaching autism spectrum disorders and the search for answers and botanical nutritional protocols for insomnia and other sleep disorders.
Alright. Well, thank you. And you know what? That autism class is a new class that I I try to do at least one or two new classes every year.
And, the autism class, that took me a long time to get together, and I'm really excited about it. I've only taught it twice at this point, so the HD will be the third time, and I introduced that class this year. So it'll be the third time I've taught it this year. And, you know, autism, of course, is a huge, huge issue.
You know, when autism was first recognized, it was estimated that basically one out of every, something like, ten thousand kids was autistic. And now the number in the United States is one out of eighty eight.
And you you people would say, well, you know, better diagnosis, but that's not the case because if it was, we'd have all these autistic adults that don't exist. The in the rate of autism has increased dramatically.
And so the idea of this class was to come to look at all the potential causes, what's out there, what's worked, what hasn't worked, and to present it in a really concise way and and help give people who are either dealing with autistic, you know, family members, children, whatever, or wanna understand how to work with it, some of those tools. Because the there's a lot of information out there, and, literally, it took me months and months and months just to sift through everything and and really try to figure it out and understand it and come to conclusions and look at the research because there's a lot out there that people are doing that there's good studies showing they don't work.
And then there's things that people aren't doing where the, you know, the the evidence suggests much greater level of success. So to me, you know, it's important that we continually push the envelope of what we can do and what we can share with people. I'll I'll tell you just a couple you know, I'm a little bit of a science geek, and I get excited about these things.
Do you know that there are herbs that you can give with antibiotics that basically disable the multiple drug resistant pumps in the bacteria that they're resistant to? Wow.
Do you know that there are there are and this is true with cancer as well.
There are so many areas. There are things that we can give, that potentially would make an antibiotic work again for something like MRSA.
And nobody is really looking at this stuff, and I I just find these areas of, fascinating that we can you know, the the this intersection between orthodox medicine and herbal medicine is an area that is absolutely ripe for explanation, for exploration.
Well, it sounds like a fun conference. And there's also, folks from Merv Mentor y'all know, like Paul Bergner, Margie Flint, Rose Elise Deachin, KP, TaKalDeka.
A lot of people, if you'll go on over to h g symposium dot com and look down the list, it'll be familiar familiar names.
And I think that would be an amazing opportunity to to, get together in a great location and and and and and meet your favorite herbalist up close and personal and, maybe answer get a chance to ask some questions, book signs, and all that kind of fun stuff.
And again, you can visit, David Winston's school at herbal studies dot net and visit herbal therapeutics dot net. Any other site that I'm missing that you have?
Oh, there's the herbalist and alchemist dot com Okay.
Which is the, the people who are interested in products, and these are a lot of, you know, the formulas that I've created over the years and things like that. And they're all based, you know, unlike the formulas I mentioned earlier, which are based on, you know, research. Somebody said this one was good, this one was good, this one was good, let's throw them together.
You know, for the first ten years, I had an herb company. We had no formulas. It was all individual herbs because as an herbalist, that's how I work them, and I combine them for my patients. But people, of course, demanded formulas.
And what I realized that even though I give each person I see unique formulas, there are basic, sort of, roots to that formula. There's certain herbs that I tend to use together because I felt that I found that they really, really work. And so all of these formulas are based on those. Those are they're based on these combinations that I've used clinically for more than thirty five, thirty seven years, that repeatedly I use over and over and over again for whatever it be, you know, you know, IBS or or, you know, whatever, you know Fantastic.
Attention deficit disorder, whatever it might be, and and that's really where where I've been able to do that.
Great. And, oh, in the book, that we were we've been featuring, today with in our talk, adaptogens, herbs for strength, stamina, and stress relief along with others.
Also at, I guess, herbal therapeutics dot net would be the spot and the difference between getting your book there versus going on Amazon would be getting it through David. You'll sign it. Right?
Well, that's true. I mean, to be honest with you, if you go through Amazon, it's cheaper. Yeah. Exactly.
They can they can sell it cheaper than I can sell it, but if you get it from me, I'll send it to you.
Exactly. And supports the herbal herbalists. We're all about supporting herbalists here on our mentor radio. David Winston, it's been an honor. I've been wanting to talk to you forever. I'm glad we finally met at the IHS and we had a chance to have this talk. Thanks to you so much for joining us today on Urbanenture Radio.
You are very welcome and thank you for having me.
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