From HerbMentor.com, this is Herb Mentor Radio.
You are listening to Herb Mentor Radio on HerbMentor.com. I'm John Gallagher. My guest today is doctor James Duke. Duke. Doctor Duke is an ethnobotanist with a PhD in botany served with Missouri Botanical Garden in the earlier years and for over three decades in several posts with the US Department of Agriculture, including work with the National Cancer Institute, chief of the Medicinal Plant Resources Laboratory, and chief of the USDA's Economic Botany Lab.
One of the most frequented part of the USDA website is his ethnobotanical and phytochemical database base he created before retiring.
Doctor. Duke has written more than thirty books, including the best selling Green Pharmacy, Doctor. Duke's Essential Herbs, Herbs of the Bible, Handbook of Edible Weeds, Duke's Handbook of Medicinal Plants of Latin America, and with Stephen Foster, Peterson's Field Guide to Medicinal Plants and Herbs of Eastern and Central North America. People Magazine and New York Times have all featured him and he spent several years exploring the ecology and culture of the Amazon rainforest. You can visit Jim online at thegreenpharmacy dot com, that's pharmacy with an f, where you can learn about the Green Pharmacy Garden in Maryland. And his books are available at your favorite online and real life bookstores. And he also has a great CD of plant based bluegrass music that he wrote, which we'll talk about in a bit.
Jim, welcome.
Thanks, John. Long time no talk.
This is the first first time was the very first probably a lot of people have told you this, the very first medicinal plants book they've ever purchased.
So it's an absolute honor to have you here.
It's like a Well, let me add, John, that as you as you called, I was working on a third edition of that very useful book.
Well, I I'll get a copy of that too, and I I so appreciate that work. So this is kinda like, you know, this is this for me, this is kinda like, you know, like interviewing, like, a rock star or something.
It's like, wow. It's really Jim Duke. So I appreciate that.
Yeah. And, you I imagine there's been so many books you've written. I mean, can you even keep track of all of them?
I would be hard pressed to say exactly how many volumes are out there. They're my name first.
That's amazing.
And, you know, what I'm gonna do for folks to honor mentor dot com or in this interview is I'm gonna have all the links to the the the sites, like the USDA databases and all, that people can link to and check out.
And, let's see. Oh, yes. And and the the Green Pharmacy Garden, where is that is that, like, right where you live or near where you live?
That is in my backyard. As a matter of fact, my grand hellebore, I'll sometimes call Christmas roses, hellebore, I'll sometimes call Christmas roses, have been in flower since before Christmas. We've had a very gentle winter so far.
And that's, and that's, it's a place people can visit?
Yes. We have regular tours in the summer, and we're sort of two miles from the Tai Sophia Healing Institute.
And their herbal classes and sometimes their nutrition classes visit the garden.
We just interviewed Bev and Claire from there last month and a couple of months ago. And and your wife, Peggy, she works on that with you?
Peggy, and I are both getting beyond work. I'm eighty two. Peggy's eighty, and she had a bad heart attack last year. Not a bad heart attack. She had a botched pacemaker insert.
So, I go out there with a rollator. I don't walk well anymore.
But it is a great pleasure, and I still do tours, two hour tours with the rollator.
And, we probably have twenty or thirty a year in addition to the classes from Thai Sofia.
Now, you're born in Birmingham in South, in Alabama. And, you know, how did you get started? Because I I there's so many different stories. Some people get interested later in life, I know, you know.
So I'm wondering, is it something you did, interested in when you were a boy, in in the woods there in the in the south or something you're interested in after you left the military or Or, like, what what was the story?
I, I really was into the outdoors, from age five on in the suburbs of Birmingham there.
There was an old man across the street, who didn't have anybody to talk to but his rabbits and a family that sort of ignored him.
And he would often walk me to the nearby woods and taught me, among other things, chestnut and watercress. The chestnut was still abundant then.
And, ever since then, I've wanted to learn all the plants around me, especially those that are edible.
And and and when you didn't have any more plants here, you went down to the Amazon to learn about those.
Right. I want to correct you a little bit. I've got over six years in Latin America, and I've got one year in one week tours of the Amazon.
But more of my time was spent in Panama and Costa Rica until quite recently.
Okay.
But I first got to the Amazon in nineteen ninety one EcoTour, and I got hooked and went back three or four times a year thereafter. I've even had all my whole family on the Amazon for one week.
Oh, that's incredible.
And so, so that mentor, I'm always fascinated by that. So you have that mentor taught you about a lot of were these things about medicinal aspects of the plants, too, too or just what you can gather and eat? Or was or was there really not a difference at that point? People were like, hey.
You can stay healthy. I don't think he was a keen outdoorsman. He knew the common things and named them for me as I recall. And it's a distant and a pleasant recollection, but I really enjoyed just walking.
And until I had this neuropathic problem, I've always walking has always been in the woods has always been my favorite pastime since age five.
Wow.
And, you know, it was a pretty incredible thing to get to write a Peterson's field guide. Like, how did you come how did that how did that come about? Is that was that something that, like, did is it from because of the work you were doing at USDA at the time or whatever? Is that before that?
Or or Well, that's a complicated and fascinating story.
I'm gonna give it to you in as short of answer as I can.
Stephen Foster doesn't have a PhD.
Mhmm. That doesn't mean he's not a great botanist.
I have a PhD.
That that doesn't mean that I'm a great botanist. It just means I went to school more. Right.
And, there was another crew that was destined to to to do the book. I won't name them because of them had a mental breakdown at the time, and the other one was the famous, Norman Farnsworth who died last year. They were scheduled to do it.
And, there was a case where Norman Farnsworth was a Ph. D, and the other person was an unlettered but skilled herbalist.
And when they dropped out of the picture, somehow, my much younger partner, Steven Foster, heard about the possibility that they might want somebody else. And he needed a PhD, and I was at PhD.
So it was fortuitous, a strange turn of fate, and we both have enjoyed it. Doesn't make a lot of money, but it's always easy when you get something for nothing in the way of royalty. It runs about a thousand dollars a year now, which comes in handy in my old age.
Right. Right. That's that's that's great. And and also, you know, I'm gonna link to it's mentioned Stephen Foster on the Herb Mentor page. I'll link to a great article in Herb Companion that I found called Ode to Jim Duke.
And, Oh, yeah.
You could read about. There's it's very fascinating going about a lot of your background and stuff in there too since we can only cover so much here.
So we were, talking, you know, Jim and I were talking, emailing actually before, and we were thinking about, you know, what what would be a good thing to talk about? And, and, I thought something fascinating that some Herb Mentor members had mentioned, had actually requested herbs of the bible because because Jim wrote that book, a couple of books on this subject. And, we'll be airing this in March, and, of course, that's right before Easter, so we thought that would be appropriate.
So, Jim, what inspired you to explore herbs of the bible? I mean, it's kind of a you know, be being the USD and USDA person and person who does all the phytochemical research, in in in all of this and the scientific aspect of the herbs, was it your connection to growing up in the South and and and your religion and everything to kinda tie all that together?
Well, my family was not very religious, but I can truthfully say that I I went to church more than they did.
Mhmm.
And, was was sort of led into that by well meaning people. And at first, I was a devout believer, but then I realized that there wasn't any Santa Claus and any Easter rabbit. And then I got question and the little thing about God. So I've always been curious about the Bible and wish that I were a believer, but, I'm I'm a skeptic on all frontiers, medicine, pharmacy, you you name it.
But, I, a true confession is good for the heart. I thought it would sell well. That's why I went into that. And it was easily contained because, the I had a a computer program.
I can send it to you, but I don't remember the link, where you could go and look for the word turmeric in the Bible or it ain't there. But if you look for saffron, you'd think he was referring either to turmeric or to saffron crocus, crocus sativas.
And, that made it easy. I was not good with the computer, but that way I pulled out verses from the Bible about species that were medicinal.
And I referred to some earlier books who weren't going at all into the medicine. They were just going into plants of the Bible. And then I would dig up elsewhere for the medicinal uses. That was just my checklist, the earlier books, and then I'd flesh that out with some proven and some folklore medicinal attributes from the various parts of the literature.
Now, are these herbs from the both testaments?
There are some from both testaments. Of course, the Jewish faith believes more in the Old Testament.
And recently, I've gotten one that even had medicinal plants of the Quran in it. And if I live long enough, I might explore that.
Oh, that would be really interesting too.
Now did you travel?
And you go to Amazon and stuff and, you know, when you're did you travel to, Israel, Egypt to I got to Israel on USD as a Israel on USDA assignment.
We had sort of PO four eighty like projects over there, where we were sponsoring their research on plants of interest to us.
And then ironically, I got there, this has more biblical connotations, I got there in the year that, the Sinai Peninsula was reverting from Israel to Egypt.
And I got to tour, Mount Saint Catherine, which is sort of a holy site to some people.
And, with about thirty, Muslim counterparts, very well, I should say Arab. I don't know that they were all Muslim, but they were all Egyptians.
Mhmm. And even there, I learned some of their uses of the herbs which show up here and there.
Matter of fact, there's one biblical herb called rocket. You and I call it rocket.
I forget the Arabic word for it, but they taught me there on Mount Saint Catherine an old saying about rocket. That's Erika Sativa for those luxe scientific names.
And they said, well, if the Arab wife knew what this would do for her husband, she would plant it under the bed.
So the the the information that you have in the book that you research, how much of it, like, on how the herbs are used are coming from, biblical text, and how much is, like, are, like, you know, yes, they're mentioned, but you have done some added information about uses.
Mostly added. There's very matter of fact, I think, the Christians of that time, who were evolving at that time would have discouraged medicinal herbs because they thought faith alone could heal.
But, I went elsewhere for almost all of the medicinal applications. I can remember a few in the Bible, like figs were used for things that might have been regarded as cancer and they do have some anti cancer phytochemicals.
And with some sort of aphrodisiac context of some of the herbs, I don't have them at the tip of my tongue, but there are a few cases where the the herbs are mentioned in the Bible. And I've tried to get quotes.
If you got the edition, I think you have this one, at least one biblical quote. Mhmm.
And, most of those are not medicinal. I can assure you had they been medicinal quotes, they would have been there instead of the one that's there.
Right.
So That's true, but you'll find very few, that really imply medicine.
The chances are there there had been folks using these plants as medicine in some capacity, I imagine. Right?
That's very important and, I like to, when I'm sending out a list or computer printout, I've programmed it now where it will say biblical because if you believe in herbs and if you believe in the Bible too, then that doubles your chances of, of success with the herb because he who believes has got an upper hand. We skeptics don't heal well.
Interesting. That's, that's, that's, No.
I'm not a believer. I believe in mentioning it where possible. Although, I think it offends the Muslims and that's why I want to do the Quran because that's equally important. For example, ginger is not in the Bible, but ginger is very important in the Muslim, Quran.
That's oh, yeah. Okay. That's so, so then, have you seen because if I look through this, there's a lot of it's for the home herbalists. Can definitely get a lot of great information from this and and learn some different things and a lot of folklore information.
And when you were starting in when the botanical and scientific community in the early sixties, and you have this career that spans fifty years, how how far I mean, are are are are we all going in the in the right direction that you have would have liked folks, you know, to be going in as far as using, you know, plants more and more for medicine?
No. Let me interrupt you. We're we're we're heading in the wrong direction. Thanks to the FDA, the FTC, and Big Pharma.
Well, please go into this, please. I'd love to hear what you have to say on all this.
Well, they prescribe, things that were approved ten years ago, but since then, they've killed hundreds of people.
And it takes them another ten years to get them off the market. But, the pharmaceuticals taken as prescribed in a hospital kill more than a hundred thousand Americans a year.
You can't come up with a head count of ten for any herb unless you talk about smoking tobacco.
Wow. So, the pharmacy are three orders of magnitude pharmaceuticals prescription pharmaceuticals are three orders of magnitude more lethal than our trusted biblical herbs.
And I agree there is some poison in the plant literature, but we our ancestors were smart enough to learn that.
I agree there are some healers in the wild plants, and our ancestors were learning to recognize that.
Our ancestors learned how to recognize what was edible.
I think they clearly recognized what was medicinal too, and those are the folk medicines that have survived the staff time.
And they're not going to kill anybody. Still the FDA discourages us from even claiming that turmeric could, prevent cancer, much less heal cancer.
But I was just communicating with doctor Bharat Agarwal from down at the MD Anderson clinic in in Texas, probably the world's authority on turmeric.
And even he and I agree that if we had cancer, already had it, and even if we were on chemotherapy, we would take GetTermic.
And that, by the way, is believed to be what is meant when saffron is said in the Bible.
And it's said only once. There's only one occurrence of the word saffron in the Bible.
But it has more things, more activities that would help with with cancers of various sorts. And in some clinical trials, one or two of the compounds from turmeric have done better than pharmaceuticals.
Do you do you, use turmeric on a daily basis?
Is it a good thing for people to take, preventatively or just put in their food or make capsules or what do you recommend?
I have beside me termite capsule, but we actually grow it in my marine pharmacy garden. It's in the greenhouse now, but we have it in several plots, of my my garden, by the way, has eighty plots.
And in those, we've got a stone with the label. We got one called cancer. We got one called heart. Oh. And we got one called diabetes.
And I believe the turmeric is in all of the above.
And it's really in about twenty plots. It's it's competitive with garlic. If I had to name the most important spices, three, four of them are biblical, onion, garlic, cinnamon and that saffron turmeric.
Just make the five ginger would come in close fifth.
But that's not in the Bible.
Right. Right. But is it the kind of thing where is if, do you, yourself, or do you recommend that people use these plants just, you know, making sure they're getting it in their diet and, like, spicing their food? Or do you need higher amounts?
So, like I think that if if I had active cancer, I would take more than I do.
But I get a lot of it with turmeric and with curries.
Oh, right. Curries.
Curry chicken is a very favorite of ours, and, it's it's what makes mustard yellow. At least if you got a jar of French's mustard, it's due to the, the turmeric in it.
Oh, that's interesting. I never even realized that that they've been adding timber to cauliflower.
Of course. We're just thirty miles from McCormick's. We have some McCormick's racks, and we can shake it on to anything.
Mhmm. And I like it with stuffed eggs, for example.
Oh, yeah. Of Of course. That's great.
The mustard, of course, too.
But have you have you seen, though, I mean, just in people use. I know with the FDA and what people are doing the medical world. But just, as far as people taking more of an interest of health in their own hands, wanting to learn about plants, I mean, since you first released Peterson's Guide, I mean, there must be a larger amount of interest in people that you've seen in more recent years than than than when you first put that book out. No?
Yes. I would say interest is greater, but the discouragement, thanks to big pharma, is oppressive.
And, they keep blasting the herbs as being dangerous when nothing could be farther from the truth.
Right. Right. And that's you know, I always try to be this optimist in in that in that kind of stuff. But, like, you know, you're a person who was working in a government structure for all those years. So you, if anyone, have probably the most realistic view of that. So Yeah.
The USDA has its own faults. It recommends the wrong things for a heart healthy diet.
So, not just the FDA and the FTC, but, USDA condones inorganic agriculture, which I think is bad, and they push GMO, which I think has some serious drawbacks.
So I'm not worshiping the USDA as compared to the FDA.
Was that always your viewpoint in in all of this, like, through all of your years working there? Or is this, like, as you discovered more and more? I mean, was there a time when you just thought that the work that the government structures were doing were were, like, you know, cutting edge and great, and then Yes.
There was the time that I became more jaundice this time.
I know.
Right. And then you kinda started seeing the Right. Because the more research you're doing, of course, and you're seeing all of this. And in the databases, I mean, that you've done, you've done all this phytochemical research, I mean, you were actually able to see. And I believe a lot of the charts and things that I've ever seen that show the minerals or what's in plants like nettles and lamb's quota, I think they they probably all came from your research, I imagine. Right?
Actually, no. I've never I've I've done very few analyses myself. I didn't do any, but I paid for some.
On camu camu from the Amazon and then a few others I've had checked out. But I compiled it from the published literature including the USDA literature, but I put it into a different framework.
USDA and nutritionists tend to prefer to talk about one hundred grams, which is half a cup.
And you know one hundred grams of grapes is not nearly as biologically active as one hundred grams of raisins, even if it were the same raisins because you just shed all that water.
So the raisin is nutritionally dense and the grape is nutritionally dilute. So I put everything in my database into a calculated zero moisture basis.
And that that tells you how much you get, that makes things comparable.
But you cannot compare a raisin and a grape even though they are one and the same thing Right. Because of the water content.
Therefore, until you get this and most chemical literature gives it to you dry like that. Mhmm. But most nutritional literature gives you that hundred grams of half cup serving.
And so are there some plants that you have found that you've taken more of as a result of finding out what's in it based on scientific research that you've done? Like, wow. This is a I didn't realize that this plan was so you know, had so much of certain you know, in your in just in your regular use of herbs?
Yeah. I I would say that I've left my intake of the wild herbs, especially stinging nettle. Mhmm. Although it's not native, it is biblical.
A different species was in the Bible. Mhmm. But the stinging nettle, once you cook it, doesn't sting anymore. And it's one of the best sources of boron and very good in many, many different nutrients.
Right. And and you're advised of eating it more?
Do you make tea or I am more inclined to add it to soups or to cook it, like, spinach, but with a lot of onion and garlic, all three being biblical Mhmm.
And all three being nutritionally complimentary. The onion's got more of this nutrient called quercetin than anything else.
It's mostly in the onion peel. Now I don't like onion peel in my tea, but we frequently cook it in the water and then take it out and then add the, the meat of the onion rather than the husk of the onion. But husk of the onions, you might remember.
Well, you're not old enough to remember, but we used to dye Easter eggs with onion skin tea.
Oh. Oh. My my wife does that with the kids in Easter.
She yeah.
Hey.
That's due to quercetin in part, which is a yellow flavonoid.
But it ain't it's more brown than yellow. The egg, I won't say, is a very bright yellow.
Oh. I think turmeric would do a better job.
Good to know. So I was thinking maybe we could just cover some herbs specifically. Like, we have talked a little bit about onion and and and a few. But, there are some plants I picked out from the book and, just see what you thought about them and and also, some that really stuck out to me like, like, almonds, for example. So what do you would you like to talk about almonds?
Joy. This is a coincidence.
I was just looking over that today and writing a book review about Bharat Agarwal's new book Healing Spices.
And, he makes the amazing observation in his small chapter on almond.
The only two ounces will give you your daily supply fatty acids. Wow.
But more incredibly to me, it will lower the blood pressure.
It will lower the cholesterol, the bad LDL cholesterol.
It will lower the triglycerides.
It will lower the the blood sugar and it will lower, much to my surprise and one that should make me eat more almonds, the C reactive protein, which is another indicative species for heart attack. But it raises the good HDL cholesterol.
I see.
That makes it what I call a Herbistatin.
Okay.
And, A Herbistatin is nothing more than an herb that will do what the very harmful statins will do.
They'll lower the bad cholesterol and they'll raise the good cholesterol.
And I imagine, the almonds, even if they've been, know, even the salted ones you get in the store, should they be being purchased raw and Well, at eighty two, I'm I'm not avoiding the salt shaker.
Right. But I think younger people should stay away from that salt shaker and that sugar bowl.
Right. Right. That's good advice. Stay away from the salt shaker in the sugar bowl. I like that.
And in my old age, I'm snaggletooth, and raw almonds are kinda dangerous for me to eat.
So I actually put them in my smoothies.
And I have a crunchy smoothie, if that's not a contradiction in turn.
But any hard nut that I don't really wanna risk wedging in between my teeth, I put in a smoothie.
I wonder if you could put the turmeric in the smoothie.
I will do that with vegetables. I think I do carrot juices and, squash juices.
Nice.
And actually, my trainer says I'd be better off doing more vegetables than fruit smoothies, but I tend to enjoy the fruit smoothies a little bit more. And like I say, I can't live forever even though my mother lived to be ninety nine and her mother almost a hundred and one. I don't want their last decade, and they were better in most of those ten years.
I see. I see.
But that almond is easy, and that is a biblical one, by the way. Well, you're going through the bible list right now.
Right. Yeah. I have some of you know, that kinda really stood out to me as ones that people might have around or are familiar with or use in the kitchen. I'm thinking, looking at, well, aloe, for example, that that, of course, that would be in the climate in that area too.
And so so is is that so that's actually mentioned too, Yeah.
And the paradox there in the Old Testament, alloy refers to something called Eaglewood Aquilaria, which we don't know much about.
But in the new test, I think I've got these right. One version, it's the alloy that you and I know as a solid cactus like herb.
Mhmm.
It's very good for many things.
And I don't know, I've never known experienced this Aquilevium, the alloy of the Old Testament.
And I don't think I should call it alloy, but it's A L O E S is, frequently used.
And I I use this topically. I don't add it to my smoothies, but the succulent juice inside of that is a very good topical medicine.
On one of my trips to Africa, a a guide there showed me how you could use this juice from the aloe as a preventive for sunburn.
And so I did one arm with it and left the other arm as a control, and you could see the difference after just an hour in the sun.
Wow. I don't I don't think it's gotten in the literature, but, it's it's an observation that it will serve as a sunburn preventative.
Right. Right. Sort of a little bit like I have seen Saint John's wort do.
And, of course, in that same area of the plant, there's some potent laxatives, anthraquinones, which are biologically active And perhaps over promoted for cancer prevention, but, alloy does have some cancer reputation, but I'd vote a whole lot more on the cinnamon, the garlic, the onion, and especially the turmeric.
You know, I I'm I'm not I I'm trying to because I'm just flipping through the book. I I don't know if you listed here, but you know when people call Cottonwood, Baal Megillad, is that's a different Baal Megillad that's mentioned in the Bible. Right?
I do have a populist in there and Oh, popular.
Okay.
Arguable.
It's, I think there are at least four different interpretations of what is the bomb of Gillette.
And I think it's probably closer to our frankincense and myrrh, but I'm not sure and you know there are no voucher specimen, no herbarium specimens to tell us for sure what they meant. Mhmm.
So I have to confess that I have two alternatives for, saffron in the Bible. One being the turmeric and the other being the saffron, the golden another golden spice.
And, nobody will nobody could be sure because either could be grown in the in the warmer parts of Israel Right. Or the Holy Land.
Right. Right. Okay. Now what about my my personal favorite dandelion?
Dandelion is not listed by that name, but we assume, and this again is presumption, we often tend to take a literary license or whatever you call it, and, it's assumed to be one of the bitter herbs of the Bible. Mhmm.
Ironically, in the Old Testament, the Meror, which is a Jewish term, is horseradish.
But horseradish was not listed by that name by the name horseradish in the Bible.
But I think that is the most important bitter herb to the Jewish faith.
But I listen at the same breath other related species that occur there, chicory and endive.
And some people would add anything over there that was bitter and eaten that would include several members of the mustard family as well as those mentioned in the Aster family that I just mentioned. Right.
And, chicory and and, So most likely leaves eaten raw or soups made?
I have never enjoyed those much, but I have eaten all parts of the dandelion except the plume on the seed. There's not much substance to a seed, but like most sunflower seeds, it's a diminutive sunflower seed in order of things. Right.
And I enjoyed most a vinegar pickled, that corm where the root and stem come together at the ground level. Blanch that and it's pretty good.
You know, that thanks for saying that because I've eaten so many parts of the dandelion, but I always kind of avoided that part. So I think I'm gonna have to now try that.
Well, it's it's also good for hepatitis and jon jon. It's meaning it's hepatoprotective. Right.
It's one of the has one of the both folkloric and scientific records for sparing the liver.
Yes. I always try to have some dandelion root every day. That's one of my things.
Let me add let me add that the milk thistle is another great one for the liver. Mhmm. And those seeds are kinda hard to get, but we grow it here in the garden, and it's becoming a weed.
It's growing in the plots that we don't want it, but it grows in in the liver plot for us.
Showing us that the liver is important because it's needed everywhere. So it wants to show itself in all the plots.
Now what about we've talked a bit about garlic, and of course, gosh, you could go on and on about that.
But That that until recently was my numero uno.
But now I really think I'd go more with the turmeric. It's it's a coin flipper.
Wow. Because, that's good to know because, you know, I've I've asked a lot of herbalists, is like if you had one herb to choose and and many, many pick garlic, but now you're you're saying, well, you know, maybe turmeric.
That's great.
Alright. Well, I can go to my database and ask which spices are best for which diseases and and clear out what the evidence is so you can look it up yourself if you don't believe me.
Oh, we believe you.
What about olives, which is must be listed, of course, as an important food. Right? And for oil and so much.
But, but what Yeah.
Ironically, off the tree, they're not fit to eat. Mhmm. But processed, they are are very good and as with the almond, that's a very good source of monounsaturated fatty acids. Mhmm.
And the oil at least tends to have this herby static approach raising good cholesterol and lowering the bad cholesterol.
Most of the studies of late have been on what might be considered a waste product, the leaves. I don't think people ever ate the leaves.
But, they've got some compounds over Europe, and it's got a magnificent range of biological activities.
Mhmm.
But the oil the olive oil in the Bible was more frequently used for anointing, which would mean, you know, putting it on the feet or something, then as a as we use it as sort of a spicy attitude to our our meals.
Now, I mean okay. So you say that about anointing. And it makes sense that in the Bible itself, in the book, that you're gonna have more ritualistic uses of the plants, then I guess that it would be, listing medicinal edible uses. Is this too bad there wasn't a, an herb or plant geek that wrote one of the gospels that could kinda, you know, tell it from that perspective? That would have been helpful.
Yeah. We'll we'll really never know. There were old doctors in in the biblical times who were recording some of the Greek, and there's, but these were botanists or doctors writing about the plants. And in almost all cases, the Bible has been written by non herbal types.
Mhmm.
Yeah. So it's like more it's more like just guessing or or just kinda going through and saying, like, okay. Like, finding evidence of the plants and then just, you know Especially because a lot of these are food. We're talking about olives and garlic and almonds and things.
Juniper, you list. So juniper, how is that mentioned in the Bible?
I would have to look at the book to see what it says. I would go to, the generic name for the juniper, And I don't think it would have anything to do with our modern concept of juniper, but it would be the the plant like, I believe it's you're straining my senile memory here.
Well, in in, yeah, bone pigeons back it open to that.
Yeah. Page one fifty four. But it's interesting. Two chronicles, it says, send me also cedar, cypress, and alghum timber from Lebanon, for I know that your servants are skilled in cutting Lebanon timber. My servants will work with your servants to prepare timber for me in abundance, for the house I am about to build will be great and wonderful. So maybe more they're talking more, you know, tree or construction.
Are you talking about the cedars of Lebanon, and I believe the genus is Cedrus.
But, what's what's the scientific name given?
The Juniperus Oxidade.
Yeah. It is the Juniperus. Okay. That's the same as our red cedar out east, and I think you get one, a white cedar out west. Mhmm. But they're all good timbers, and the berries of our Eastern Juniperi shall I say, are one of them is used to send a flavored gin, so it's modernly a food, but certainly not to be consumed in large quantities.
Right. Right. Another one that kinda struck me is pomegranate.
Oh, that's that's king of oil.
That has more types of estrogen than any other plant that I know of.
So much so that it might be an overdose of estrogen to eat a fruit a day.
Wow. But that that fruit that also contains human identical, like, estriol, estradiol, and and in large quantities. And you've probably seen the commercials. I I think they're quite accurate, but the FDA is bound to come down FTC is bound to come down on them because they are saying it will prevent cancer and so will I say it will prevent cancer. And I think that fruit juice is as close to any super fruit juice as you can get, and much more some of those than some of those that are overhyped that are not biblical.
I I heard something about its connection to, you know, with, with prostate, health.
Yeah. There there there have been t TV ads on that.
Oh, there really? Okay. Because, I was wondering if that's, you know, what what you know.
Do you do you find there's a truth to that if, that's what you think remains to drink?
That's a major weapon in the anti cancer arena, and I'm I'm sure doctor Agarwal, if you could ever get him on, would agree with you.
I do. I do.
I think most of the research is coming out of Israel where it does quite well. Of course, it's a major crop down south of you in California.
Right. Right. Right.
Well, I'm up in, Seattle area, but we, I usually get the, the juice and have that fairly regularly because I've heard a lot of It's kinda messy if you don't if you have to juice it yourself.
Oh, no. I just buy the concentrate.
Add it to my juice in in the morning or something, you know.
And I would recommend that to anyone if they can afford it. It's not cheap.
Well, you know there It grows in my garden outdoors, but it never fruits.
Occasionally, we'll get a smaller flower. But down at the National Arboretum, which is in Washington, only about twenty miles south of me, It's closer to the river and the ocean and it flowers quite well. I think they bring it out in the spring in a pot, big pot, but it really produces there.
Well, I I heard, well, I I found it, in a concentrate, which so if anyone wanted to take it regular, you can save a lot of money buying a concentrate and adding a little to your other things versus the yeah. If you go to the store and just buy a thing of Pam and can of juice, it's really expensive. But, you can save a little. Just a little tip.
So, how about walnuts? Another one.
That's Well, what what to you resembles the brain more than the half of a walnut?
Seriously? Cauliflower?
Well, that's a good one too.
I don't know. Since you asked, it just came out.
Right. The whole walnut family, and that includes pecans and hickory nuts, is extremely rich, off the charts rich in that brain food called serotonin.
And, the oil is one of those, like fish oil, alpha linolenic acid in there. It's sort of a vegetarian fish oil.
Not quite as good as the fish oil, but certainly tastier.
And probably more expensive, but I've had walnut oil, and it's delicious.
And we do get the black walnut here. That too has much of the same serotonin in it. Mhmm. And serotonin has all sorts of activities. And but the other activities in there that would help prevent Alzheimer's.
So it's got, some doctrine of signature and some science for for the brain.
That's good. Wow. And, you know, let's see here.
We have, willow, of course. That must have been, well, did you find willows are also used similarly, like, a lot in in Western herbalism around pain because of the salicylic?
Yeah. From the Amazon to the Arctic, it has the same activities as aspirin.
And when Bayer patented aspirin over a century ago, he claimed that it was easier on the stomach than the the regular salicylic acid. What he did was made it acetyl salicylic acid and patented it. But I'm not sure that's true.
And frankly, the aspirin, like your concentrate, is a lot easier than messing with willow bark. But if I had a toothache in the Arctic or the Amazon, and I saw a willow by the river, I would get the inner bark and tap it into that toothache.
It's also good for the fever, the rheumatism, and was used when we didn't have better things for malaria.
Not a food, but certainly a highly recommended medicine with most of the same attributes as aspirin and probably some of the same.
I've heard that aspirin kills ten thousand a year due to bleeding in the stomach. Oh. I don't think we ever lost anybody to Willow Bar. To Willow. Wow.
You know, I I'm looking at a lot of these and saying, like, wow. You know, with a lot of these that we get access to locally, especially in North America from maybe almonds to to walnuts to so many. I guess it depends on where you live, on where things can grow. But it seems like there's always a species of willow wherever you are. Are there any of these other herbs I'm trying to look in here that, like willow, that natively would have grown around the world at that time.
Just really struck me just looking at going to the table.
I don't get that in the tropics very often. Right. Maybe in the drier tropics. It's grown as a crop in Egypt.
But along the humid Amazon, I I don't see it.
Right. Right.
I do see the John Canes, but they don't go to the Arctic.
Right. Right.
So I think you you hit on an interesting point. The the genus, the Willow genus is, what's the word for it? Everywhere. Everywhere. If any plant is there.
And I imagine looking at the list here, if you're gonna look for similar things around, also well, there's wormwood, so there's always gonna maybe be some kind of art is, like, kinda artemisia or something like that.
Or Yeah. I'm glad you wrote that up. Artemisia is a genus with over five hundred species.
Mhmm.
And I think, mugwort, of all the herbs that I use, that's the one I use nightly because it corrects my tendency to have bad dreams that I can hardly escape from around five o'clock in the morning. If I chew my Mugwort after dinner, I don't have that problem. But if I forget, as I did last night, I'm not able to get into recurring dreams that I wake up and say, oh, I've gotta forget about that and, go back to sleep, and I'm back with the same dream or the same sort of dream.
And I will never believe in mugwort until this year, but that's Artemisia vulgaris.
But I have grown in my garden what Gates is Bill Gates is very interested in the Artemisia annua, which is the only one according to some authors, five hundred species of Artemisia that contains a very famous antimalarial Artemisia.
And, that I think is going to get abused like quinine was and we're gonna use pure artemisinin and then people will get resistant to it. But if we took the whole Artemisia with all the alkaloids there, resistance would not develop or certainly not in ten times as much time.
That's yes.
That's so it's really about, you know, in that kind of The whole plant better than these isolated chemicals.
Right.
Which is interesting because a lot of the research you were doing was checking out a lot of isolated chemicals in a lot of your work. Right? And then now you're more like, hey. It's really about the whole plant.
Yeah. I recommend where possible.
And in that case, there is some evidence that the isolated compound does quite well.
But if you take the isolated compound, you might need a lot of that to get to a given therapeutic level.
But then if you add the whole concentrate, then through synergies things improve.
So, artemisia for malaria seems to me to be best to take isolated Artemisia to boost it up a bit and then the whole extract to make sure you've got all those co occurring chemicals. The whole is better than the sum of its part.
Alright. Alright. And, in the in speaking about the part we're talking about the database a bit. I'll have the links from that. I'll I'll people can go and check out. But how do you recommend that folks use that? Is it more just something more for the scientifically minded, or can somebody just, you know, who's kinda interested in plants, kind of a layperson who wants to check out some things, will they find some information useful to them as well?
Well, I think, I get lots of good correspondence on this, and more people use it than any other database at the USDA until, which is surprising because, there's a big nutritional database that has things in the one hundred gram level there that I have in the zero moisture basis.
But there's, for example, when somebody is finds that they're given phytochemical, has proven activities, and you want to know which plants have the most of it, there's a there's a query on the USDA database and you listen to it, and it'll rank them from high to low if there are any with quantified data. And, people are always calling me with that question. I just print it out and send it to them and tell them you do it next time.
Yeah.
I put it on the Internet for you.
You do.
Yeah. I don't wanna do it for so You get terminally dyslexic as that night. I see. You probably noticed it in my emails.
No. No.
Not at all.
So, I was, so impressed, Jim, yesterday. I I got in the mail, and thank you very much for sending me a copy. And I think it's probably one of the best CD titles I've ever seen because he can read it two ways. We can read this herb album, or we can read it herbal bum. And I'm thinking you kind of meant herbal bum.
I meant to confuse you. I can get I like double double and and entendres.
Don't strike me right away.
I thought that was one of those I I was a hippie when I was young, so herbal bum is is apropos.
And now that I don't have my false teeth in, I'm I'm an herbal bone. I am barefooted today.
And it's, an excellent CD of, mostly bluegrass style, music, and I love bluegrass. Anybody who likes bluegrass and folk and that sort of thing, lots of fiddles and whatnot will love this. And and, well, first of all, before we talk about it, let's take a listen to the first track here. This is actually the first time I ever actually did this one. Congratulations on the first person I actually interviewed who had music. So let's take a listen to the song Chamomile.
I saw her one day when skies above were gray. She brought the sun to the sky.
I was so gloomy then, but she cheered me up again when I saw the love light in her eyes.
So So tell us a little bit about that and the writing of that song.
Okay. First, I wanna tell you a little bit about the album if we have time.
Yeah. We have lots of time. Go ahead.
I, I used to, when we were driving on long road trips, have three by five cards in my pocket, and I would, as a wild ditty would come along, I'd write it down and then refine it when I got home.
And I ended up with a collection of over five hundred herbal poems, mostly five liners, and some good and some bad.
The one I'm speaking about was a young man took took pot until his hormones got shot. His breasts stay enlarged while his testes in discharge.
Is he a young man or not?
And so which was that one?
That one's not on the album. Okay.
I'm looking for it.
I'm like, what what what's That's a blue book by the same title, Herboban.
It has all five hundred poems in it. And then, some it handles some music in it too. But that's out of print and probably won't be available, although I could send words to people fifteen years old. I was working at the Crabtree Creek Park down near Raleigh, North Carolina where I lived at the time.
And, one of the boss's daughters was always sitting on a porch, and she is, in effect, chamomile.
But, of course, nothing ever came of that. At fifteen, she was probably much younger than I. And her father was not a very, accommodating sort, so I would never have messed with her. But I did, you know, have a puppy love type crush on her. It never came to fruition, but then it just became I threw those words together sometime before nineteen eighty five when the blue blue herb album came out.
And, there's some real truth in that. And chamomile is a great medicine, by the way. Not mentioned in the Bible, but it's so one of the best things for several things. But we won't go into that. Let's stick with the music. I'm enjoying tapping my feet again.
Yeah. You've been said you got some folks coming over tonight playing some music, and I think I always thought that is maybe the secret to longevity. Right? Just, herbs and good music.
Well, they help relax, and anything that will calm your stress is good for you. I'm using the computer as a tranquilizer these days. I don't think about some of my other problems. Mhmm. And I get get a lot done that way.
Well, let's see.
I'm just looking on some, maybe another one. Oh, the ginseng song is real good too. I really enjoyed that.
Oh, I got a good story to tell you about that.
Go right ahead.
Written in China. And, I was first in China in nineteen seventy eight.
So that's when that that song was written. We had a beautiful Chinese translatress accompanying our tour.
We were going up to Harbin, north of Harbin, China, where they grew Siberian ginseng. They don't call it that, of course. And And they also were growing the Chinese ginseng, which looks almost exactly like our American ginseng.
But this beautiful guy, we were on a place called the Marble Marble Boat when we got back towards Beijing.
That was a tour touring place.
And she asked me to write a song, or to sing her a folk song, and I wrote it right there on the spot. It's improved over the years, but, I even had the word, Let's see. What's their name for it? Chinese, it's Ninjang.
And in Korea, it's Inseong.
Mhmm.
But, Renshin Renshin, that's the Chinese word I even put in a verse about that. And that has some double meanings in it too. It's it's a pretty happy song.
Well, hey. Since we're here, might as well take a listen. Okay.
Searching for the holy grail on the Appalachian Trail when I found that herb they called gin sand. Rowan deep down in the woods, that's where I got the goods. The herb that turns the autumn into spring. Makes an older man cock sure and a younger man secure.
Makes an older woman younger there's also, wintergreen, maple syrup, witch hazel, sour grapes, lots of great ones.
And I love the singers you have on there, fantastic.
Right. The first, ten songs on the CD were done by studio musicians, down in Nashville, Tennessee.
And I paid them. I I think it was a good year for me financially, and it cost me ten thousand dollars to put out. And I ended up with a thousand c, not CDs, anyway, LPs.
And I could roof roof my house with those.
You know, Jim, I came out with a CD in nineteen ninety nine of songs that I wrote. And, and, I I I always told my friends they make great ice scrapers.
I have a few extra as well here.
Alright. Well, Wintergreen is about, the the daughter, excuse me, the mother of one of the Nashville musicians, I had a brief affair with her, and she was an icebreaker.
That's what the song Wintergreen is about. I'd like to hear that. Would you play that?
Yeah. Let's play it.
Wintergreen's the breath of spring on the wintry forest floor. It makes the body sing when the songs don't prettiest thing I've seen.
Breath of spring throughout That's great.
But nobody knows it's about her except me and you and whoever's Uh-oh.
This is gonna get out, you know. This is the Internet.
If I'm eighty two, she's probably eighty one now.
When did you record this then if you did it in the LP era?
The first ten were done on that LP. Mhmm.
And then later, the USDA asked me to write that song about Chesapeake Bay because they're having a Chesapeake Bay special, and he knew this was a USDA who ran a TV weekly. They had Don Elder with name. And he called Duke. I wanna I wanna saw a bluegrass song about Chesapeake Bay.
And I wrote it before nightfall on USDA time.
And I had my gang come over like they come out of the night, and, I taped the words onto my bass little and, gave words to the tenor, and and I I would do the harmony.
And then then we recorded it and got paid five hundred dollars. So fine, I'm getting some return from my musical investment.
Well, you know, now you're a professional. It it made you, an actual professional musician.
But he never he never played it because he said it was too bluegrass y.
Oh, it's close enough. Maryland's close enough to Yeah.
We got the Maryland State flower plugged in there.
I I love it because this is one of my favorite kinds of music. So I love Irish folk and bluegrass and and and all. So I just took to it right away. I was like, oh, this is awesome.
Yeah.
We generated in in less than twelve hours.
Can can can, what site can people pick the CD up?
I mean, do you have it for sale online or I do not.
I'm negotiating with some people and I'm gonna talk to Amazon. I know they'll they'll do book deals.
I don't know that they do CD deals but Well, you can do, well, there's a couple options you can do.
You could probably, they, they they they'll do fulfillment, and and and services. They'll do Amazon's for that. And I imagine even if there's a way to get it on iTunes or MP3 download, then you don't have to nobody has to ship anything.
So That would be the way to go.
And, I I don't have a whole lot of copies left of the CD, which is very convenient. But if they can come by, I can give them a box full of LPs.
Yeah. Well, that's And they get ruined their house. Come come visit the Green Pharmacy Garden and take a tour. And if you mentioned Herb Mentor, Jim will come out and he'll go up on his roof and he'll take off, snap off a copy of the album. I guarantee you.
In season, we actually have, bluegrass sessions in the garden. And once in a while, I'll get a classical guitarist, who's got a great collection of guitars, and the music wafting through the four lanes of the garden is is very pleasing. And we usually do that for the volunteers more from the tourists.
And that's at the this once again, the green pharmacy garden. That's with an f, pharmacy.
The green pharmacy garden dot com. And you can also link to Jim's research databases from that site.
There are other URLs I always see here and there for you, but this was the only active one that I noticed.
So I just wanted to Yeah.
One recently went defunct. We were hoping to sell some spices with it, but we failed. So it's come offline. We are negotiating to get somebody to house that, but the owner lost interest when she couldn't sell it.
Well, you know It was a good site.
Yeah.
That was Green Pharmacy with a PH.
Alright. That's what I was looking at. So hopefully, you can get that one back up. Well, you know, Jim, it's been an absolute honor to have you on the phone here today.
This is just so much fun.
And, hopefully, we can have you have you back sometime. And, and, you know, having the accomplished herbalist and bluegrass musician So, once again, if you're in the Mid Atlantic States, please see about going on a tour next summer. And you can get Doctor. Duke's books. They're available at your favorite bookseller online and beyond. There's lots of them. Jim, thanks again for joining us today.
My pleasure again. And, nice meeting you.
Is yeah. This is just amazing. I just and I can't wait for the next edition of the Peterson's field guide. And if you don't own the Peterson's field guide to use essential medicinal plants, wait for the third edition to come out.
You're gonna you're gonna love it. It's, it's, my my copy is probably my most worn book. I have my copy right here. I'm holding it.
We can, I'll have you autograph it here for me through the airwaves.
Okay. I think, by the way, it'll be on ebooks ebooks too, electronic.
And, hopefully, we might make another nickel that way, which never been a big money producer, but it's always a book I'm proud of.
Well, I hope they can turn it into an app too, like on iPhone or iPad would be really awesome.
I don't well, we we we get better royalties on on these deals.
But this is my first experience with it.
With all that. So, instead of just saying goodbye, we're just gonna leave everyone with a song. Let's listen to, well, let's let's put on, Appalachian Rain. Any story behind that before we play it?
Well, I was playing with a band called Appalachian Rain, but it was r e I g n.
And, I thought maybe they would play my song. And that was a blue we used to play at Shakey's Pizza Parlor in DC.
And, the band leader didn't like it, so it never flew. So that's the only place you'll ever hear it.
Well, alright. Well, let's hear it right now.
Coming up. Coming up.
Thanks a lot, Jim. We'll see you later. And here's Appalachian Rain from the herbal album or herb album or herbal bum. You you you choose. Here's the song.
One word.
One word.
Never seems to be amazed how the shack where I was raised kept me tied to my mama's apron string.
Then the whole thing fell apart when my daddy broke her heart, and he left a mountain on a flame.
Appalachian rain.
Don't you rain on me again.
I done got the blues on the run.
Appalachian snow, don't you snow me no more.
I'm gonna take my love in the sun.
We were much too young to wear, but that's what our daddy said. Much to dream to be a mom and dad.
So the knot was tied too soon, Appalachian Honeymoon swept away the little love we had.
Appalachian rain, don't you rain on me again.
I done got the blues on the run.
Appalachian stole.
Don't you snow on me no more.
I'm gonna take my love in the sun.
When you love a mountain girl, there can't be a better world. You smile till there's raindrops in your eyes.
So when you leave a mountain wide, and you done turned your back on life. With each raindrop a piece of you dies.
All was on now on the plane started crying mountain rain.
Appalachia The wolfie howled knowing how you can't go home again. The chimney is all that now remains.
Appalachian rain, don't you rain on me again.
I done got the blues on the run.
Appalachian snow, Don't you snow me no more. I'm gonna take my love in the sun.
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