From HerbMentor.com, this is Herb Mentor Radio.
You're listening to Herb Mentor Radio on HerbMentor.com. I'm John Gallagher. My guest today, all the way from New Zealand, is Isla Burgess. Isla has been an educator for the past forty years, currently the director of the International College of Herbal Medicine, was the founding director of the Waikato Center for Herbal Medicine in New Zealand, and is the convener for the International Research Group for the Conservation of Medicinal Plants.
Isla appeared in the inspiring film honorable Madison Newman, wrote the must have book, Weeds Heal, A Working Herbal, and is teaching two wonderful classes at the International Herbal Symposium in June. You can find out about her classes at the IHS at internationalherbsimposium.com and you can visit Ayla on the web at at the international herb at the international college of verbal medicine at herbcollege.com.
And we'll be talking about some great places I will be teaching in a soon to be US visit in Seattle and Wisconsin and other places. We'll get to that at the end the call.
But before we do that, Ayla, welcome.
As well. I I actually didn't mention before that, my wife and I, when we first started seeing each other, spent a few months in your wonderful countries.
Oh, okay. Yes. Was a good place for a romantic relationship.
It was a wonderful place for that to bloom. And here we are fourteen years and two children later. And and so the wonderful wonderful, island of the clouds worked worked well for us.
So you are in tomorrow. So how's the future?
Glorious April months of still calm, warm days but not so hot that you can't go and work in the garden. The ocean's glorious and still warm enough to swim in, and, yeah, it's pretty good.
Excellent.
You know, we have some member questions we'll share with you a little later from our venture dot com. But, I mentioned that because one person wrote in a question which is always exactly where I like to begin.
And that is, how did you get first interested in plants? And just tell us about that herbal journey or mentors and people get to know you a little bit.
Well, I'll have to do the short version Mhmm. Because the long the long one takes a little bit too long. But, suffice to say that when I was three years old, my mother said that I came in and announced that in the middle of winter, I was going to plant lettuces. And she said, don't be silly. It's too cold to plant lettuces, and they won't grow. And I said, they will.
So obviously, fairly determined about, my relationship with plants. I hung out with my father, and, he was a great vegetable gardener.
And, and then, studied, yeah, at university, studied physical education in the beginning, actually, and sciences.
And then when I was around, twenty, a very close friend of mine gave me a Culpeper's herbal, and that blew my mind that not only could we use plants as medicine, but I could find some of those that, were, talked about in in Culpeper.
So there began a journey that has taken me around the world to many places. I have a fantastic, herbal whanau or family and, many, many, wonderful friends and contacts and connections.
So, yeah, that really was where it all began.
And thank you.
Because really on our site, there are we just notice how the different diversity of of people's backgrounds and and and and where they first learn. And and it's it's interesting. A lot of folks like yourself have been doing this a while, how the story often begin with some kind of pull or inkling in childhood, like something that they just knew. So that was really nice to hear.
So I do wanna talk about your book a bit, Weeds Heal. And and folks, you know, the reason why I mentioned this because I I personally, this is a book that, I've had for many years and kind of feel like it's the core of of my my herbal library as far as influential books have concerned. And and it's interesting because it's not one you could just go to the bookstore and and just go find, in borders or something like that.
It's it's kind of challenging. I I just kind of stumbled upon it one day and I got it and I was just like, oh my goodness. This this is exactly the way people need to learn about plants because, our heads get so much in it first.
Oh, you know, what's this used for or that used for?
And it was so refreshing. So what I'd like to ask you to do is if you could talk a bit about the approach in this book and Mhmm.
And and why you wrote that.
Weeds Heel grew out of teaching. So, in about nineteen ninety, I set up the Waikato Center for Herbal Studies, and it was the the first college of of its kind and that it was a day teaching college, training and just focusing on a clinical herbal medicine.
But in that, I wanted the plants to be at the core and, of of everything and that everything else revolved around our respect for and our use of and our knowledge about plants.
So then, I started really looking at ways of knowing and ways of connecting and became very interested in spending time hanging out with plants, teaching my students, and working with them in the same way. And then they said, look, why don't you write this out?
Because, you know, it would be good to have it there. And so I did.
And that's how Weeds Heal came into being. So Weeds Heal is focuses on, some of the common plants that grow around us.
It is about trusting yourself to know without using any of the the books, that say what that plant is used for, but trusting yourself to come up with about seventy percent of the plant's uses and, how that plant might be best prepared, dosage, all of it without looking to somebody else.
Mhmm.
And that's really empowering because if I'm traveling around the world and I'm in a different country and I don't know I have a hunch about a a plant, but I don't know it specifically. I can pretty soon tell whether that plant is safe to eat, at least seventy percent of its uses and, you know, what it's about.
Mhmm.
So that's the the substance really is empowerment of the person and making that connection. And there's no doubt that the more time you spend with plants, the more insights you get and the the the greater the relationship, develops.
You you know, it was like I said this book, when I was teaching a class, I I I modeled the class. And what I would do is I only had four short days with these students.
And so instead of going through all these skills and stuff, I I would just focus the day around one plan. So I might be, yeah, we're gonna learn tinctures today, but we're gonna do it around Oregon grape. And I'd start the class out exactly using your book as the guide. Right?
And, you're I will attest to this that, especially with the group mind, very powerful, when everyone went out and did these exercises and got back and went around in the circle then we shared what we experienced with our senses.
It like, they told me anything that I could have told them in a book.
Mhmm. That's right. That's right. It's amazing, isn't it?
Yeah. And and and then and some of those people come back to me ten years later, you know, that I taught them and say, you know, those are the two, you know, the you know, Oregon grape and cottonwood were two of them and and they would be and they'd say, those are the two plants that I use still use all the time. I use my cottonwood salve, my work and grape tincture for everything.
Yes. Yes. Yes. So they've learned the bigger story about those plants. That's amazing. So What I'm what I'm Go ahead.
I'll I'll just, add to that. Mhmm.
I'm taking that now just a little bit further Mhmm.
And working especially with a group.
I can talk a little bit more about this later if you wish, but I'm looking at a a different way of doing science around a quantitative way of measuring the qualities that nonhuman life forms possess like plants. So this has been done by a remarkable woman called doctor, Wimmelsfelder, Francoise Wimmelsfelder in Scotland. And she's been, using and perfecting this whole approach with farmed pigs and chickens to get people to see that these, animals express themselves and that we know how or what they're expressing.
So no one's really worked on this with individual plants. So that's where I'm working. Part of that and you can do this, you know, with a group of people, group of your friends or students or whatever, and choose a plant that is your plant that is the kind of controlling, shall we say, entity of your workshop, so something that really is holding what your workshop's about.
And begin that workshop, by saying to the people, this is not about you.
Forget all that's gone on, in, you know, in your life until this point that you've got here. You are present this moment. I'm not interested in what's going on in your life or in your mind right now. So we really want to create that space where we allow the plant to or the tree to have, some engagement with us.
Now then you bring so you go and you sit around the tree and you take, you know, fifteen, twenty minutes, whatever, and then bring them back inside and get them to sit very, very close so all their shoulders are touching and then talk about what you experienced. It is remarkable.
Wow.
Wow. Wow.
And it just really blows your mind as far as, like, you know, like, what's what's really going on out there. Yeah. Like Yeah. It does. Though we don't really know a whole lot, do we? Yeah.
No. No.
So if you wouldn't mind, let let's say you we were in a, you you you were to bring someone up to meet, chickweed. That's a plant that we can around the world folks listening probably know about and can Yeah. You know, through the process of learning about it through sensory awareness and what they might discover sense by sense.
In Weeds Heal, I've I've focused, more on, you know, using your senses. But how I start this process now and I'm kind of beginning thinking about writing another book with a slightly larger picture about this or a more holistic framework.
But how I would start it now would be, we visit it. So we hang out and, you know, have a look at where it grows and where it's choosing to grow.
And you can't do that in a workshop over a year, but if you've got chickweed in your backyard over a year is a good idea. Just noticing things about it. It.
And, looking at the pattern of its growth, how is it growing? Where does it like to grow?
What of its surroundings is it expressing in the way it feels?
So for example, chickweed feels cold. It feels moist.
Mhmm.
So you know that it's going to bring those qualities, to its use.
Then looking at it very carefully, and this is another exercise I've started introducing to a group of people, is noticing the detail about that plant which tells you it is chickweed and no other. So looking for the unique aspects.
And you can a group of people, once they settle into it, will come up with about seventy five to one hundred different aspects, different qualities that that plant possesses.
Mhmm.
And then only when I've now engaged people in that do I start the real, connecting on a more sensory level?
So that looking at, looking at the detail is what's called exact sensorial perception.
What I then get people to do is to go before they go to sleep that night, go through all of that again, all of that detail, absolutely every single thing they can remember.
Mhmm.
And then that allows that plant to settle in you.
And you've you you will not forget it ever. Right.
So then we start the touching tasting.
And in chickweed, looking at the inner core of the stem, it's got quite a solid core. What does that tell us?
Does it mean that it's beneficial for tendons? We might not even know whether it's beneficial or not but what we might be able to tell from that is that it has a use for a particular part of the body. Now, that's our interpretation.
And remember that all these, you know, human made constructs we come up with are about our interpretation.
Correct.
So this is just another way of knowing it.
So then once you've felt it, looked at what makes a difference, opened that, quite fragile stem, inside, looked at those tiny little flowers and, you know, the fine line of hairs, then we can start smelling and tasting. So there's nothing about chickweed that puts you off.
And when you taste it, it makes if you chew, chew chew chew, a little piece of it about the size of half your fingernail, your small fingernail Mhmm.
Chewed between the top two teeth and the bottom two teeth and your tip of your tongue and just, circulating the air, regularly through your mouth, then what you get from chickweed is a soapiness, a frothing.
Now that tells us a lot.
It tells us that it's got soapy saponins, and soapy saponins are are important in the body because they can have, a very, should we say, minor steroidal like action.
So chickweed is is beneficial for bringing coolness to heat and the other thing that it's got quite hard to distinguish but you do get it is that it's, alongside the soapy saponins, it's also got a little bit of slime. Mhmm. So that mucilage, you know, coats and slimes any, mucus membrane topically or throughout the digestive tract. So already, we're starting to know a lot about that plant.
And we haven't had to look at anything other than where it lives, what its qualities are, and then starting to use our senses.
That's that's just amazing.
And and and and and and it is one thing to, and I love in the book how you just end in booking what's in the book. And, you know, you can get to that a little later.
But but that's the thing about it.
It's it's it's it's like we're going over in the learning your plans course, on on Herb Mentor now that it's you gotta first form a relationship with Yes. A plant and and, in On their terms.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean Not on our terms.
In in in in that particular course, we do it a little bit on our terms because we want people just, you know, anytime of year just to just to start to look. But then what we're talking about here is how to really learn.
Yes. Yes. That's right. Yeah. There's one other thing I'd like to, perhaps add to that, because it's quite a funny story.
I learned a lot when I was writing Weeds Heel. And in particular, I learned patience.
The guy that, Barry O'Brien, who did the photographs for this, was one of the world's most patient men.
And he was he was a formal scientist. So, you know, we had some fun, working, with these plants. And we were talking one night, because we always had to do the photography at night because he worked during the day. And he had one of those super duper, microscopic cameras.
And we were talking about the, the appearance of red clover and how it looked, you know, so clitoral in its, each of the, little florists. And then the next day, he left me a photo, and it's, plate nine a in the book for those that have got it on chickweed. And he said, well, you think red clover looks, a little bit like the female genitalia. You just go and have a look at this photo.
I'm looking at it right now. I just I'm just opening my book here. Trespicular.
Boy, are you right, especially if you turn it inside.
A good laugh about that. And, actually, that's one of its uses. It's a male tonic.
Wow. So there's a lot to be kind of observed when people talk about things like doctrine of signatures and stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah. Now I think the doctrine of signatures can't just stand alone. I think that it should be taken within the context of the whole. And it's one key. It's one way of unlocking a little bit of understanding.
But until we've got, all the other keys that back that up, only then can we truly say, yep, this plant is about this. So so I'm always looking for more and more keys to support that which I've already uncovered.
So if we do step back and and look at the more holistic and and the work you're doing with the plant person relationship, I'm feeling, what what's that about?
And Okay. We talked a little bit here about it, but, I mean, let's go beyond and and and because let's just, you know, blow people's minds here.
It's just I guess. Let's just kind of let's break let's break down any kind of constructs that people have thought that they if anyone's thought you've had it figured out, here, we're gonna stop that. We're gonna end to that right now.
Okay. Well, in two thousand and eight, I had one of the most astonishing years of my life. I decided to leave my home and go to the UK and spend seven months living at Schumacher College in Devon in England.
Mhmm.
And they offer a master's degree in holistic science together with the University of Plymouth. And, you know, I went because there there were people like Rupert Sheldrake teaching and Henry Boratoff, all these amazing, amazing people.
So, during that, it was a mind retreat, and it gave me time to think. And it gave me time to to really deepen my connection with the plant world.
I immersed myself in this whole study for for the the the full year that it took and ended up writing, my dissertation on the sensitive.
And one of the papers I wrote, for that master's degree was called the plant person relationship and healing.
And I'm I'm working. This is this changes every time I I run a a workshop on it. And I've worked with different types of workshops around this. So the idea, is really to to to connect with with the plant in that qualitative way that I described this before in the exact sensory or perception.
And then to work out, and I've worked out, this is what I'm going to be teaching the intensive on, actually, at the International Herb Symposium.
Okay.
So I'm doing a four hour intensive on this.
It's It's usually a three day workshop, but I'm I'm gonna kind of have to Constantina it, a bit. And I'm very excited to be doing it at all because it's where I'm at at the moment.
So so the idea is that, through an understanding of chaos and complexity science and through coevolutionary processes as taught by this brilliant biologist, Lynn Margulis, from the States, from Boston, actually.
And, looking at that and then looking at the similarities between us and plants from a coevolutionary perspective and then looking at the the qualities that each expresses. Now you have to know plants well. You have to really know them well and people well. And I've worked out a whole approach that I'll be doing at the International Herb Symposium, on how to match, how to do the match.
Now, if we're looking at quantum physics at that fundamental level, we can change things by nudging the way the body works. And so by introducing a smaller, active, energetically similar plant, into a larger being, our bodies, then we change its way of, yeah, of working.
So, that's it's kind of a modern way of laying the foundation for that old idea that we have a plant ally.
A plant that will do more for us than anything, any book, anything that's been written about it says it does.
And so it's taking it into that next step. And really what I'm looking at now so then then we do a health, check on the people and have them take their plant for, say, six months. And we do a three month health check and a six month health check, so I've got a little health scenario. So I'll be laying the scene and this challenge, at the International Herb Symposium in that intensive on the Thursday.
So if you haven't, you know, people listening to this, if they're going to the symposium and they would like to do that intensive, it's new stuff and it's very exciting.
Wow. Wow.
So how about an example? Sometimes some folks listening to things that are getting a little bit out there first, you know, like, need to let's let's come make something concrete for some listeners.
Okay. Okay. So I worked, for a start with six of my classmates at, at Schumacher.
Mhmm.
And, give you an example of one of the people that I worked with.
He was part English, part Japanese, very tall, linear, person.
He had a history of of gut problems, over the years.
He has a true nature, a really there's nothing woolly or whatever.
Actually, I'm just gonna go into my computer, John Mhmm.
A minute.
How can I and go and give you an example of the the worksheet that we work through?
I'm not sure how to do it.
I've got you on my full screen. Oh.
And I'm not sure if it how to bring up something that isn't easy.
Don't click on anything. We might lose you.
Okay. Okay. I found it. I found it.
Right.
Just give me a minute here, and I and then I can give you a more precise example.
Okay.
Great.
And while you're doing that, I will mention that, the book Weeds Heal.
I did mention that, hey. It is a tough one to find. But you can get it online. My good friend, Julie Nunn, at crow's daughter dot com who you may have seen on her mentor from time to time. If you go to crow's daughter dot com, she does have it for sale online.
So that's a place where you could pick us up a copy and tell Julie we sent you. Yep.
And, also, it's available from Flower Power in New York.
Mhmm.
That's four zero six East ninth Street. She has just got that.
And the two people that are running workshops, one in Seattle, which is, that's, Dandelion Botanical?
Yeah. Dandelion. I think dandelion has some.
In Seattle.
But also from, let me see, from Danielle McCutcheon.
I'm pretty sure she has some copies. She's the one that's organizing, some workshops in Seattle that we're going to mention later.
And, so does Moonwise Herbs, Linda, who's organizing workshops for me in, Madison and Wisconsin.
So, she has a copy of We Deal.
And that's our little that's our that's our little commercial in the middle.
Now we can get back to I just I like to, you know, really Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay. I had to interrupt my search here.
Oh, no. That's why I was doing the commercial. Right.
Here we go.
Here we go.
So the the worksheet kind of is around qualities, and I've set it out so that we compare qualities in situ, where people live, where they thrive.
Does the plant thrive here? Does the person thrive here? Do they like full sun? Do they like shade? Are they dry or, you know, they like lots of water? Do they have rich food, or are they sparing in their demand? Do they like living in communities or are they found in many places or lived in many places?
So we look at all these qualities around the plant and the qualities around the person.
Then we look at things like, sustainability, physical features. How similar are these plants? And sometimes it takes, you know, a couple of goes to to find, the plant that's perfect.
And we look at, you know, how their energy is. Are they different seasonally?
We look at whether they have a rapid metabolism or fast growth.
And then we look at what type of person they are. Are they more watchful?
Are they strong? Are they fragile?
Are they superficial in the way they approach things or are they really earth to deep?
So we compare all these qualities, and we come up with a a number of qualities that are the same and number that are different.
And then we see what sort of match we've got. And we're looking for around an an eighty percent match.
So, for example, for this particular person, this participant, he was a very tall, erect person whose presence attracts others and is noticed.
He prefers a range of contact and speaks with a deeper wisdom in general conversation.
He grew up in both Japan and Europe and cities but prefers a more open situation.
And I actually chose for him, and it was a really good match, Burdock, you know, a tall, broad leaf, large, biennial, straight vertical roots down to two meters, bringing up nutrients from the depth found in both Japan and Europe, wild and cultivated, preferring open ground with space but growing in a community of other plants of the same species, tolerant of a range of condition, prefers moist ground, seed head is erect with heads of bird seed that attract and catch your attention.
So, you know, looking at this whole wholeness of the of the two.
So it's very interesting.
Wow. That is that's incredible.
I love the diversity of things and learning and everything. But, but more than anything, really, when you you know, even if you're incorporating as part of how you're learning, I mean, just doing this.
Yeah.
It it keeps you looking at the big picture all the time and and and and prevents you from getting too tunnel visioned where you you lose it, where you lose your your mojo, you know, or you lose where you're going, where you lose the whole thing. Yeah.
So I think it's important And one of yeah.
One of the big things about this is, about trusting. You know, trusting you know, when we talked before, you started taping about the Yongian mandala, you know, the the thinking mind and the the the feeling and the sensing and the intuiting Mhmm. That each of these four is important in our, relationship with the plant. So, yeah, we do have to apply, our logical mind, our analytical mind.
We do have to to use and engage that, but it isn't the only thing that's important.
Otherwise, we just be these intellectual beings only.
Yeah. Yeah.
We have all these other features.
The very exciting thing in science is and this is mainstream analytical science, and this is where it's very useful for the work that we're we're doing Mhmm. Is that they have they now know that plants have mini brains just like our brain, complete with neurosynapses and chemicals that that are, in connecting in this in the synapses in their root tips.
Yeah.
So they are constantly seeking out new information. They have memory mechanisms, and they are constantly feeding that back to the their their own being, their plant as a whole, and to all the other plants that are around them.
And often, that connection is through the fungal mycelium, that that underground Internet Mhmm.
That connects everything.
Wow.
That's So exciting stuff.
And and and and and then you mentioned that in your work at Shoemaker or the college that you were somehow linking this work that you were doing with conservation work.
And is that related to what you're doing with the international research group, the conservation of at the very beginnings of hopefully, you know, building some research around the plants at risk, bringing people's attention actually to the fact that we can't live if we don't have these plants.
It's not just that they're useful medicinally.
Currently, there's there is somewhere around between fifteen thousand and fifty thousand medicinal plants are at risk of extinction in the world. And not these aren't necessarily, this particular thing I'm just about to say isn't necessarily associated with, medicinal plants, but we lose two plant species every hour in the world at the moment.
Now most of us don't know about that. So that was the idea of developing a a nonprofit, organization, which is the research group. Yeah.
And that's at I r g c m p dot org.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. You know, there was an interesting question here from a member that said, she asked, there's a theory that the plants that you need because it's kind of it's this little tangent relation. There's a theory that the plants that you need most will grow outside your doorstep. Do you subscribe to this theory? If so, what place do plants play that don't grow in your environment?
That's your first question and then Okay.
This is a good question.
Yes.
Good question. Okay.
I think in my experience that if you let me loose in any, ecosystem Mhmm.
Where plants are living, I would find you a plant for every system of your body.
So I think that we could find that plant that shifts things for you, growing around you.
I don't necessarily I think it's very human centric to say that the plant is there for us to use. I want to put turn that relationship around and that the plant is there, and we find the use.
Mhmm. Mhmm.
And it's our stuff.
K.
So what role is there in plants that are coming from other countries? Or you know, a lot of a lot of this is about, the research and plants become very popular. I wrote a newsletter for the research group recently on and just how plants just, you know, somebody finds a a use and there's research to back it up and then somebody just really runs with it, and they, want to make millions. And so, you know, they make a product, and the product becomes the plant. And, I would love to see that we use plants locally, and you're better at that in the States than we are here. There are a lot of, you know, amazingly skilled, practitioners that that know how to use the local plants, really well.
And in that situation, I think, we should forget about plants that are coming from other countries.
So, yeah, I mean, one of the plants I've looked at in quite a lot of detail is rhodiola rosea. It was really popular, I think in the States, a a couple of years ago.
That plant grows halfway up the mountains, you know, in Tibet and on the Arctic rim.
Now it's going to be a canary in the the the mine of climate change because it just won't grow in the same places.
It's well known as a plant that allows a person to adapt to altitude, hence, you know, the bringing where it grows.
So people that that travel a lot use it quite successfully.
But should we be using it?
Probably not because, you know, it is going to, be at risk.
And this same person asked, like, is it wise to grow medicinal plants that are not native to your locale?
And I don't know. I mean, there's there's a lot of plants out there. I mean, we, you know, we have a little garden, and I'm curious about a few different plants. So I found them at a place, so I stick them in the soil to see how they, you know, taste it.
Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Me too. I've done it all my life. You can do that.
Look. We live in a we live in a global world.
Yeah.
And a lot of the information that we have about, you know, the plants that we're using as medicine come from elsewhere.
Mhmm.
It's better if we grow them. You know, we can't go back to only having, native plants around us. Yeah. It's it's hopeless. That just couldn't work in this world.
You know, we have an insatiable desire to grow the unusual.
And, you know, I'm I'm sitting here actually looking at a beautiful photo from Hortus of Hyoscyamus, which is, you know, henbane. And I grow henbane. I love it. It's a deeply mysterious plant.
You know, I like to think that maybe I have a few of its qualities.
So, you know, I wouldn't have that that amazing excitement if if I was only growing native plants. Now that doesn't mean to say that that you don't know how to use your native plants and preserve them and and so on.
But you got those giant fern trees.
Yeah. Yeah. They're amazing. Actually, the the the, black Mamaku, which is the the largest one, has a a koru, you know, in a spiral, which is the, the leaf that's about to unfold.
That inside, if you get rid of all that prickly stuff, it's so mucilaginous, way more mucilaginous than slippery elm, for example. Right. But, you know, that would need to be harvested with a great deal of care. We can't have people just going and hacking out those uncurled leaves. It will cause problems for the plant.
So it's about knowing how and when, to harvest. Really important.
At at irb college dot com at your school that you're the director of, there is a question from, one of our members. I wanna know if you incorporate native local floor in their applications into your curriculum.
And does it have his favorite herb for your area?
Does it sorry?
Do do you have a favorite herb for your local to your area?
I guess you just got to use it at your school.
Right.
Well, the college is an online college. Mhmm. So it's international. Mhmm. And, no, we don't do, we don't have a unit on local indigenous flora and its uses.
Mhmm. What I do is encourage my New Zealand students to study with a guy called Rob McGowan who's particularly knowledgeable, on Rongoa Maori. That's the the traditional Maori medicine. Mhmm.
And it's better to do it in the bush in the locality of that. Mhmm. Do I have a favorite local plant?
Probably, of the native plants because I live near a very beautiful piece of of bush. Probably Kawakawa, which is, related to carver, and it's a macro piper, excelsium. And it's, just such a gorgeous plant to work with, especially from a qualitative perspective. Mhmm. It has, knobbly joints that are that are clearly, you know, raised and swollen, and it's exactly what it's used for.
It also has a heart shaped leaf, and, again, it's it's used around circulation. So, you know, its its signature is so obvious.
So, yeah, that's probably my favorite at the moment.
It's kind of related to is a question someone had on wonder he was wondering the best way to get into the field and both limit. His person's like, hey. As far as schooling and limited budget, how do you get in touch with people locally to get more training? I think, you know, it's like that, and and I'm just imagining just when you're a lot of the holistic stuff that we're talking about is just like sometimes it's just between you and a plant going out and harvesting and just doing it on your own.
Right? And learning. I mean, I mean, it's one thing they get if you can find a mentor and something hopefully. Yeah.
But, but, the I think I think spending time is the most important thing.
Mhmm.
This you can't do this quickly.
Mhmm.
You know, one of the the fun things about going to the International Herb Symposium is that I've I've now been going there since nineteen ninety four.
And we're all of the people that teach there well, not all of them, but a lot of the people that teach there like Rosemarie, Susan Wade, David Hoffman, you know, various others. We've grown up with this now for for over forty years, and it's become us, and we are it. And that's the exciting thing in in the States. There are so many knowledgeable people. So treating yourself to spending some time with one of those persons is really important.
You know, taking a book like Weeds Heal that's going to give you some fundamental ways of trusting yourself and then doing the work.
Yeah. Building your skills that way.
That's it. You know? Just doing it. Just go do it.
Yeah. Doing it. Yeah. I mean, we're in we are in an interesting world Mhmm. Where, qualifications are, seem to be important.
Mhmm. Especially in New Zealand. We're, you know, looking at this at the moment.
So, you know, do do we become registered? Do we not? You know, I know there are very strong feelings about that in the US.
Yes. There are. Yeah.
And, and quite rightly so. You know? It's it I I don't know if I'm just hopeful, but I have a feeling that we may have changed that slightly now and that people are beginning to see that you don't actually have to have a bit of paper, but it's your experience and who you've worked with and what you do and how you live your life, you know, that's, equally as important.
Yes. Exactly.
You know, sometimes people will say, you know, I can't find anyone near me that teaches herbs. Then I say often will say, well, maybe you're to be that person who's gonna do the teachings in your area. Yes. And it sounds like you need to get to work.
And yeah, and if we always remember that the plants are sentient and aware beings Mhmm. That are moment by moment expressing themselves, or what we have to do is take the time to learn their language and I put language in Inverter's Commons there because, you know, it's not our language that you and I are communicating with. But if we take that time, then we'll learn. But if we go in there and think that this is about us, then we won't.
Right.
That's true.
Because I often wonder if, you know, am I am I making the space for people to learn about plants or the plants choose me to help people learn about plants?
Like, who knows?
We'll never know that answer, but it's really fun to think about.
Yeah. As as you as you facilitate more and more workshops around plant directed learning, which is, you know, what I'm doing now, And and the plant person relationship and healing is a part of it. Mhmm. And, a paper that I'm presenting at the New Zealand Association of Medical Herbalist Conference in Wellington next month is about, other ways of knowing. So so really looking at, that new research technique that I'm working with. But if if, what where was I going with it?
So what was your last comment?
I'll just Well, I was just commenting on, like, the plants and if if if they're, you know, their their role in all of this.
We always think it's our choice is what we're doing, you know, like, if we're somehow at least inspired. You know, there's that connection with inspiration.
So so what I do now in these, workshops is that I'm the bridge between the class and the plant world, And I what I'm doing is keeping the plants happy and creating that openness so that there can be a conversation. And if I can do if I can take a person through to experience that, then that blows their mind because it's a participatory experience.
Wow.
And that's what's exciting about this work now.
That. And, so let's tell some folks how they can experience some work with you because because you're coming to the International Herb Symposium, and that's in June, late June and, in the Boston area.
You'll be teaching in Seattle in early June. Right? So what's the information on that?
Okay.
So on June the, the tenth, on the Friday, the tenth, I'll be talking largely around other trusting our senses using local For those in for those in the, in the Seattle area who don't know in the greater Puget Sound, Dandelion Botanical is in Ballard.
Yes. And you can just Google Dandelion Botanical Seattle and find them.
Yeah. Yeah. And then on June eleventh and twelfth, out on Vashon Island, I'm running a two day workshop, with a clinical focus. The plants, of course, will be at the core of this, and they'll be, you know, that I I absolutely couldn't teach now without, having that.
But it will be also around, digestion and issues and the the the importance of changing that that if we change nothing else.
Mhmm.
And so we've we've called that people and plants health and healing. And, the contact person there is, Danielle McCutcheon. I'll just give you her email. Mhmm. It's, d a n I mccutcheon, m c c u t c h e o, n for Nancy, at earthlink dot net.
Great.
I think she has a workshop called string time.
I mean, a website called string time. So that would be something to Google.
And then the next week, on the fifteenth of June, I'll be speaking in Madison.
Now, I don't have the details but that'll be on herbs and health in a changing world. So we'll be looking at some of the key things about developing resilience, and, how we need to be adaptable and flexible in this world. So I'm going to be, you know, kind of, bringing that, and there'll be local plants, of course, around that. And then the following night in Wisconsin, and that'll be around the weeds heal, trusting our senses, and then a Friday during the seventeenth, Saturday, Sunday workshop, at, in was at Wisconsin.
And the the person to contact for that is Linda by her website. You can get all the details and sign up for these workshops through that website is moonwiseherbs dot com m o o n wise w I s e herbs h e r b s dot com. Mhmm.
And then it's to Boston that next week and I'm actually doing three things at the international. So there is the intensive person relationship and healing and excuse me. And then two workshops, one around the the sensing, but also another workshop just on other ways of knowing. So I'm going to be, working with a a, you know, group in a dynamic way in both of those. So it'll be fun.
You got a busy, well, if you're gonna come all the way here from New Zealand, you have to make the most of it.
Yeah. And just just in case anyone wants, the next month, I'm actually on my way to Kyrgyzstan.
Right.
Tell us about it.
Yeah.
It's this is new in the world.
I'm part of a exploring holistic science and the subtitle embracing diversity and difference.
And this is being held in Kyrgyzstan on July fifteenth to the twenty second.
Now the amazing thing about this that they are holding ten places. There are forty five participants.
They're holding ten places for people outside of the country.
And, you can go online to, dub dub dub taleim, t a a l I, m for Mary, dot mega, m e g a, dot k g.
This is a really going to be an exciting event of looking at participatory holistic science methodologies from a range of perspectives. I'm doing the the plant connection one.
Roland Plail is, looking at using the this type of of approach, for facilitating social issues, work around social issues.
And one of our tutors, Philip Francis, is, looking at the the the role of current science, where science is working, and the the part that it plays, in, in a more holistic framework. So looking at that dynamic between quality and quantity. And so it's really it's going to be a very interesting, process.
So people that if anyone wants to go, they can either contact me or, or get the details through that website that I gave you.
And the conference itself is only costing fifty dollars.
It's all being funded, with the generosity of the Christiansen Fund, from your country.
And, that includes, for the conference days, transport, Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Which is, you know Must've just got to look after Google that and see what the heck it is.
It's not the easiest thing in the world, But it'll be an amazing event.
And all these things, if you're listening to this in the future, are happening in the year two thousand eleven.
So Yes.
So that's two thousand eleven, and that's in July.
Okay. That's in July. Okay. So someone a year from now will be like, wow. I wanna go.
And then we're like, Yeah.
That's right. We better say. Oh, boy.
And, let's see here. Then all we have to just remind people that, once again, get weeds heal at crow's daughter dot com. And if you need to email Ila or find out about the her school, it's herb college dot com. That's a wonderful URL. It's easy to remember and I wish I got it first. No.
I was very lucky on that one. I think I think I booked it in the year two thousand.
So I couldn't believe my good luck.
That's excellent. That's all meant to be. Yeah.
Press if anyone's listening from New York and just, that I will be at Flower Power, just, not sure exactly the timing but at the moment it's it's looking like that week after the conference, the International Herb Symposium.
Okay. So late June.
Yes. So it'll be probably around the twenty ninth of June.
Nice.
Be at that bookshop to talk to anyone about Weeds Heel.
Boy, that's that's wonderful. I'll be in, I'll just be in New York right before you get there. I mean Oh, no. I know we're crossing each other's paths.
Soon as you get here, I'm gonna flee flying east. And soon as you fly east, I'll be getting ready to go back. So No. Let's miss each other.
Well, Ayla Burgess, it's been fantastic. Finally, after all these years of using your book and finally getting to, to, interview you and hang out and spend some time. And and, folks can expect us for sure in the future to have a few more talks, conversations with each other on Learning Herbs. I'm sure of it, Especially since we have this wonderful Skype connection here.
I it's Yes. You can be in New Zealand. It sounds great.
Alright.
The amazing thing about our Skype connection is there's no delay.
Exactly.
And you often get that with our overseas one. This has been absolutely perfect.
That's because you're in the future.
That's because you're in tomorrow. It's Thursday and I'm in Wednesday. So, you know, it's amazing that Skype brings time. It time, it fuses it. It brings us together.
It's great.
So Yeah.
Wonderful. Well, thank you very much again, Ayla.
We'll Okay.
Be back.
I'd like to to just say kakite ano to to everyone. That means have a good day.
And, yeah, it's been sheer pleasure talking with you.
Thank you.
Okay.
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