From HerbMentor.com, this is Herb Mentor Radio.
You're listening to Herb Mentor Radio and HerbMentor.com. I'm John Gallagher. My guest today is Timothy Lee Scott. Timothy is an acupuncturist and herbalist from Vermont with a master's in traditional Chinese medicine. His new book, Invasive Plant Medicine, demonstrates the ecological benefits and healing abilities of invasive plants.
Timothy studied extensively with Stephen Buhner, who wrote the foreword to his book. Working with Buhner led him to work in the area of Lyme disease treatment, and he later formed Green Dragon Botanicals to provide remedies to the greater Lyme community. You can visit him at invasiveplantmedicine.com and greendragonbotanicals.com. Welcome, Tim.
Hey. Thank you, John.
You know, thanks. Thanks for being here. And it was just really great to meet you at the Traditions in Western Herbalism Conference in New Mexico. That was a great event. And, when I saw your book, it was an impulse buy for sure.
It's one of those books you just don't think about, you know, you don't like, do I need this? It's like, oh, I want that.
Having, you know, used so many invasive plants myself over the years, that it's it's, it's it was just like, alright. What's he have to say?
So you have a native plant sanctuary up at your place, Yeah.
I've been working on some woodland gardens Mhmm. Focusing on planting ginseng and goldenseal and the and blood root.
And that's that's been a a focus for a few years now. It's been at this piece of land for about nine years. Mhmm. So soon after I get started planning. Yeah.
And and then you said it was your your your wife that convinced you that there is no such thing as a weed?
Yeah. That a long time ago.
Back when I was in Chinese medicine school, I was with her and, gardening and the subject came up, you know, and about weeds. And, I hadn't put much thought into it at that point, but over time, it's really made sense and and beginning to see these plants all over the place and recognizing them also from my studies as a Chinese herbalist as well. So, yeah, it started a while ago understanding these plants and not necessarily having a prejudice against them. Just trying to understand why they're there.
Well, Emerson said a weed is a plant whose virtues have not yet been discovered. So what's your what's your definition of a weed?
Yeah. Well, I I definitely follow along these lines there. And, you know, there is a lot of controversy around the basic definite definition of a weed, but essentially, it started almost ten thousand years ago when we started agricultural systems and began to discriminate between the good plants and bad plants. Those that we wanted to raise as crops, versus those who were sneaking in to the disturbed soil. So this sort of indoctrination of, good and bad plants has started a long time ago, and it's sort of excelled to the point where we're at now where we're really fighting these these weeds, these plants that are almost everywhere.
So all of these plants really are serving an ecological niche in it then?
Yes.
I think, yeah, every plant has a purpose where it's at.
And most of these widely dispersed plants are also considered pioneer plants, those plants that move into those areas of disruption, whether it's through natural disruptions, wind fall downs of forests or if it's clear cutting land.
These plants are usually the first to arrive. And by arriving there, they're, one, helping stabilize the structure of the soil and helping prevent further runoff.
And, generally, over time, you know, the the the plant species change and as the forest regrows in this case, it allows for new species to move in and eventually, in the natural course of things, would return to a forest state.
So, yes, these these plants are oftentimes attracted to these areas where there needs to be soil stabilization and other potential benefits too as far as potentially helping remediate these lands that are contaminated and toxified Mhmm. By by different means.
Now let's take a a plant, as an example, to talk about that on an ecological level, like mullein, for example.
I'm sorry. Which one? Mullein. Mullen, yes. Yes.
So Yes.
I you know yeah.
Go ahead. Sorry. Our connection sorry, folks. Our connection's a little there's a little bit of lapse on it. So, we're doing our best here. But but as if there's a little but I was just asking about mullein and how that, works in the you know, with what you were just saying and and and and and and its part in this secession that you were talking about.
Right. Right. Well, mowing is one of those plants that often colonizes, land after there's been four fires.
Mhmm. And, these plants move in, and I liken it to, you know, their their soft, blinkety leaves that sort of cover the land and help the land regenerate after the disturbance of fire. And it seems as though the plant takes over the land, but after a few years pass, it allows all their species to move in. So, you know, initially looking at it on the short term, you would say that's an invasive species that's taking over the place. But from a if you step back a little bit and look at it from a a little longer time scale, you'll see how that changes and how that plant has moved in there at first and then it it helps support that soil, that land, and then gradually retreats as all their plants start to move in.
Mhmm. And, what about that there's a connection that you were making between that, like you saying, like, it's, for re it's there's this, like, connection between what it's doing, there, ecologically and also possibly medicinally.
Right. Yeah. I it it is one of those plants that helps inflamed tissues and in a way fiery tissue that specifically the lungs.
And with it arriving at this place where there has been this fire, this heat, excessive heat, in a way is is that anti inflammatory medicine for the land, and at the same time, it it provides that same kind of medicine to humans as well, helping the inflamed tissues, specifically our lungs, with those fiery conditions.
Alright.
There's a need Are are you do you have you found that in your that's really fascinating.
And I always kinda found I now when I read your book, I hadn't really thought about mullein in that. I mean, I've heard that with some, like like, I've heard Steven Buhner talk about lichen in that sense, how it's, like, in all of the treetops and it's like the aveoli and it reminds you of that when you look at it and, it's also good for our lungs and all Like, that's the first time, like, that was years ago, I think like, ten years ago or so when I saw him speak, he was talking about that. And that just blew me away. And, I really liked in this book, you know, when you started talking about that because it's something that's just, I think, really fascinating and something that there's a there's such a truth behind all of that that we connect with.
It's I don't know. You know, it's like it doesn't seem quite like all, like, scientifically logical, but somehow, like, we just know that makes sense. And so, what else any other plants stand out like this to you? Like like how you just mentioned with the mullein, as far as in in invasive plants go?
Well, you know, one of the plants I have one of my favorite plants is Japanese knotweed. And one of the things that Bunner pointed out to me, a number of years ago was how knotweed was essentially moving in the same trajectory and at the same rate as Lyme disease had moved into the northeast.
Mhmm. And and, you know, that was at first, yeah, okay. That that makes sense in, you know, how to how to validate that was, you know, my question. You know, as I began talking to people from the area, they would begin talking about this plant, how it just recently moved in, and has has taken over and and these people are complaining about Lyme disease and and how the the plant just took over their their land and arriving soon around the same time that, you know, they contracted Lyme disease.
And, you know, it was really neat when I started looking into this more and and and finding sources and for my book, I I found these two maps. Mhmm. One for the distribution and areas where Japanese knotweed was considered invasive and another map say describing where Lyme disease was most prevalent and it was fascinating to see basically the same areas overlap.
Wow.
And and so, you know, that that was just an added confirmation to, again, like, what you're talking about. Just it sort of makes sense at a a deeper level. It's just hard to, you you know, scientifically validate these sorts of things.
Right. Right. Right.
So I wanna we'll get to a bit more of that and I wanna ask you some more about Japanese hot weed and all in a little bit, for sure.
Now, you know, you're saying, well, let's see.
What was really interesting how you're saying that these, well, along lines of what we were just saying, that these plants really are here for a reason.
So what is that reason why why these, you know, and these these plants are taking over? And we should probably define, you know, for some folks not sure exactly what we first, perhaps what we mean by invasive plants and giving some examples.
Like we just mentioned something like Japanese knotweed but that might not be familiar to people. I mean, we're talking like dandelion and plantain and all the very common plants that we often see right outside our door, right?
Yes. Exactly.
Yeah. And, you know, the definition of an invasive plant these days is an alien species whose introduction does or is likely to cause economic or environmental harm or harm to human health. So that's that's the official definition of an invasive species. And, you know, there's many questions that come up just knowing that definition. You know, one, you know, how do you properly define an alien in a native species? Mhmm.
You know, these days, you know, the basic time scale for a definition of an alien is a plant that arrives after Europeans colonized this continent.
And so that's the date that's given five hundred years ago. And so, you know, from this from that time, you know, people were bringing these plants for all good reasons, and there was, policies by the government to continue to bring in these plants. And so there's so many factors that add up to why these plants are so widely dispersed.
It's not a single answer, and it and it really depends on each individual ecosystem because they're all unique. Mhmm.
And, you know, one, people have been spreading these plants on their own for hundreds of years Mhmm. Purposefully and by accident. So at the root of all this of this spread is, you know, a lot of mostly human cause.
And, you know, as we have entered more of the industrial age of the last one hundred years or so, these plants have also become more present and widely dispersed.
We see them as they're indicating a lot of our imbalances with the environment in which we live in.
Mhmm.
All the destruction and expansion that humans have have done over the last hundred years, that's really been a huge hand into moving these plants around. And again, these plants are the pioneer species. So once that land is disturbed, these plants like to move into there.
Now now I gotta I gotta ask you something here that that since since I got you on here, something that I always wondered.
See what you think about this.
Just exactly what you were just saying there is that could it be okay.
When before Europeans started colonizing the area, I mean, the most part you you had were intact environments that had had been able to fulfill themselves to their mature state and were maintained and left that way for a long, long time. So, you know, could it be that, you know, these the seeds of all these invasive plants and all are already there It's just that because they started clearing the land, they were like, hey, opportunity's right.
Yeah. That's, you know, that's very well possible.
I think that that definitely could be true. And, you know, plants have been moving even before, you know, humans came along to this continent. You know, plants have jumped whole oceans and, come to new lands that they previously didn't inhabit. So yeah. And I think there is that possibility that these seeds were already here, just waiting.
And You know, to So I think Yeah.
Just like the the forest plants are they're probably a lot of seeds still around too. And then if the, you know, if the conditions became right again for for them, they could very well come back as well.
Exactly. Exactly.
That's really that's a so so so really, you know, there's, yeah. You know? So did did they take over and sync with the industrial agent, you know, and and also could they, you know, be here to heal the wounds of the industrial age?
Yes. Yes. Yeah. And that that that is my take on the situation for the most part.
Mhmm. And, you know, as I started diving into some of these plants and what the the their ecological benefits might be, I I began discovering that a lot of these plants, one, they flourish on and in toxic environments oftentimes, the disturbed toxic environment. So where there was mining or agricultural runoff, these plants were more likely to gravitate to these areas. And as I started looking into that and finding the specific, area which is called phytoremediation using plants to clean toxic soils Mhmm.
I saw that many of these plants were involved in this capacity.
So one of the highlights of that was the plants, the common reed or phragmites.
And when I was searching for this information, I I I didn't really realize what I might find. But when what I discovered was that this plant is probably the most important remediating plant for soils and wetland systems and that it can effectively clean sewage wastewater, heavy metals, at least fifteen heavy metals, at least eleven common toxic pollutants, including herbicides and petroleum and TNT and EDT, PCBs and and all these other things. And this plant has also been used throughout the world for cleaning municipal wastewater systems, industrial wastewater systems.
So this but at the same time, this plant's been labeled as this noxious invasive species that people are trying to get rid of.
While in actuality, it's thriving in the wetland systems and helping clean these pollutants from the soils of water which they they grow.
So so so It must be growing expansively along roadsides, which just gets all the runoff from the highways and and roads, And and those areas must be some of the toxic land around us.
So so I got a question then. When I when I grew up in New Jersey, and I'm driving up north and I just remember, you know, you're going along the parkway up there and you just see miles and miles of raggedy, right? The reeds all all through there, all you though did those just kinda show up or were they planted? I I always kinda had the sense that they were planted, like, by somebody because they knew that. But did they just show up in that area and started doing their thing?
You know, I think some of it was planted and a lot of it expanded from there. Mhmm.
It is one of those stabilizers. So, you know, it it very well could have been planted originally when they first made the roads there to just stabilize that soil along the roads.
Oh.
So but, you know, with it also tolerating more wet areas too. Mhmm. I'm sure they I would imagine it was planted to a certain degree, but it's really, you know, taken over that whole landscape on its own. Mhmm.
Yeah.
Oh, okay. And so and then it is doing the job then to clean it up. Now now here's something that I I I'm sure people have wondered too. When you're saying that, you know, these plants like that can absorb heavy metals and toxins and the soil and everything.
And in my area, we've got it's blackberry world out here.
Blackberries would would be just blackberries and dandelions and cockroaches left over after nuclear holocaust now. But but, now when these are purposely planted, are for that reason of absorption, are they ever harvested and processed to get rid of those, so they just leave the plants there? What if they wanna use that? Like, if they decide, hey. We wanna build something here now or use it. Do they how do they handle those plans? You know, what do they do?
Yeah. That's a good question, and and I think it, it depends on the situation. In some cases, you know, there's different types of phytoremediation.
Sometimes the plants will just, capture the the toxin and stabilize it within their plant body. Sometimes they can transform and neutralize those toxins. Uh-huh.
And and it's enter it's back into the system in a less toxic form. Uh-huh.
And and then sometimes these plants have been encapture these metals, and they can be further harvested, and you can extract those metals back out of from that plant, basic bio mining of the plant and these these metals that have accumulated in them. So in in so doing, you not only you you basically take the plant material to to a a facility that burns it and creates, biomass power in addition to recovering some of these metals back out of it.
Are there are are there people is that being done right now? Like, what is it done in this country or part of the world? Are there people gathering biomass and doing that?
That's There's there's a little bit going on around here.
Mhmm.
There's a Rufus Cheney, I believe, up in, Cornell is one of the folks who are who are doing this with plants. And, Europe is definitely ahead of the game with that.
I know Usually are.
Yeah.
I want to say Sweden uses this plant for biomass energy sources.
And, you know, this whole science of using these plants is relatively new, only coming about since the nineties. So it's a a fairly whole new industry coming about.
Amazing.
So so so there so this is what you're saying here, you know, there's people doing some research, doing that. There's, you know, you know, possibilities of of invasive plants being used for but, you know, then there's a whole part of, where I was reading. You were talking about how, you know, it's one time the United States had an office of plant introduction, and and I imagine that was what, like, the nineteenth century or something that they were doing that?
Where they brought in, like, two Maybe even yeah.
So yeah. Probably seventeen, eighteen hundreds. Yeah.
There are two hundred not two hundred thousand non native species were brought in? Is that what you said?
Yes.
That's crazy. And and and so and so but now the government is more, the opposite where they have this, like, real you know, one of their wars, like, war on on on on on noxious weeds. And, now, I mean so so it's really come so at the same time, there's some of this stuff going on, but, but but but also there's this this whole, you know, battle, that the government has seemingly waged on these plants at the same time. And and, so talk about that a little bit. I'm I'm really curious about, like, how that happened.
Yeah. You know, when the country was first starting out and trying to get established, they were promoting these plants like crazy and trying to bring everything in and and brought these plants in for a variety of reasons, economic and and medical reasons, landscaping and curiosity reasons. So they're really into learning on what can grow here and what they could make use of and it really started to change at the beginning of the 1900s when that's when you first saw some of these widespread laws of getting rid of these invasive plants Mhmm. Start to take place. It was mostly farmers who were doing that.
You know, they were starting to take over the cropland in the Midwest and heading out West, and and they didn't want these plants along with their crops. So and from that time, it's it it was primarily, farmers and livestock ranchers promoting this. And only towards the end of the nineteen hundreds did it start to turn into this more widespread war and battle against plants and, more, nature organizations starting to address these plants and tourist organizations and whatnot. So, it's really things have amped up in the last ten years or so, regarding these plans.
But the approach seems to be, and I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, I mean, from it seems to be that their approach is more chemical to get rid of versus rehabilitating habitat conditions for the native plants. So that's is that true?
Yes. And, you know, in my book, I I talk about some of that funding too, and it's obvious that the funding is geared towards eradication and not towards rehabilitation.
And, you know, as you look further and see hello? Yeah. Mhmm. Let me hear. As you look farther and see who is potentially instigating this. You see the the herbicides companies promoting, this agenda.
Ah, man. And yeah. And so there they are at the at the center of this battle too, just like, you know, all our wars that we're we're fighting against in this country.
Some big chemical company is at the core of it, it seems.
Or Yes.
Some oh.
You know, coating policy and funding policy is is their business. So, they're they've had a good upper hand lately.
And and and it really is brilliant in a way on the part of those companies. I mean, not to tell I'm not taking their side or anything, but it's it's just kinda like how these defense companies know that if they just stir up, you know, war in in a crazy, unstable part of the world that'll just perpetuate and having a need for their product, like, over in the Middle East, for example.
Whereas the same it's almost the same analogy where they're like, they've gotta know there's no way they're they can ever eradicate all these weeds so they're always gonna be in business or something.
Yes. And and and a lot of these cases, they're making these weed terrorists stronger too, you know, by, fighting so hard and and manipulating them because, you know, these weeds wanna survive, these plants wanna survive, and they're very adaptable and are learning to become resistant to these herbicides. So it just, you know, it the new herbicides come in, it's just, yeah, perpetual.
And and and and, you know, for the most part with invasive species for for for for farming in most purposes are you know, are pretty easy to live with when, you know, if they if if approached right. But, I mean, I I I guess that there's some real concern ones, like, you know, like if you don't do something, it'll take over like your kudzu or your blackberries and that kind. So is there are there different levels that they kinda really kinda look to work with? I mean, nobody's trying to except for, you know, except for on a lawn to lawn level, nobody's really going out there and trying to eradicate the dandelions.
Right. Yeah. These days, yeah, they're using plains with herbicides going over ranch lands. And in the Southwest they're targeting tamarisk which is all throughout the arroyos there.
And yes, they are it is a larger scale movement that is, you know, propelling masses at a lower scale to, you know, get rid of these plants and and and promoting this this mentality at at all levels.
Now you're saying though in here that because some people listening are gonna go, Yeah, but you know, these plants and the arroyos or these plants that are, blackberry's taking over this huge area or the kudzu taking over.
They really have got to be dealt with or something. But you're saying that, like, you know, this is just the beginning of a a secession of healing towards, you know, the creation of a more, you know, advanced botanical environment that there just it's kind of like small thinking to just kind of, you know, the the the in other words, they're they're there for a reason.
Yes.
And and, you know, if we are going to try to get rid of them, let's make use of them and make them into medicine or in some cases food or in all our cases, oils. You know, it it really depends on the plant, but there are other ways to approach these plants and get rid of these plants if you so choose to using all our means and not necessarily chemical disruptive means that will further you know, help propel the spread of this plant. You know, this the plant these plants like the disruption, and in a way, in some cases, they they like the toxins too that they're applying.
And so and and those herbicides are are not only going to affect those plants, but it affects all the plant species alike.
And so my main take is, yes, these plants are here for a reason and and for likely good reasons.
And if we're going to get rid of them, let's think about it a little bit and and see why they might be there first and then how to make better use of the plant instead of just trying to kill it and get rid of it because these plants do have, useful purposes.
Mhmm. So so so instead of, you know, clearing perfectly good land, the plant crops that you're gonna use for biofuels, why not just harvest these plants for biofuels?
Exactly. Exactly.
That is one place to start and stop diverting food crops for biomass purposes is is one thing that I think would be helpful.
That's really and so let you know, let's let's move on to Madison's end since, you know, that's a big part of the the book that you have, here. And, and I wouldn't mind, you know, since since we're you know, you've you've you've done a lot of work and research in Lyme disease, You tell a story in there about people that concludes that Lyme disease was actually, you know, can be, you know, like people thought that it would, like there was this thing where people thought it was brought a study where it was brought on by certain plants.
Like but it would those plants were actually a cure.
Yeah. So what Yeah. Yeah. Tell that one. That was really good.
I I really thought that was Yeah.
There's a the there's a main medical research company that was like you said, looking for the causes of spread of the spread of Lyme disease Mhmm. And went into the stands of invasive plants of Japanese honeysuckle and blackberry.
And they found that the ticks there's greater number of ticks on these plants and therefore concluded it was the plants that are helping spread this disease. Mhmm. And when I started looking into these two plants, specifically Japanese honeysuckle and barberry, I found that they want the the Barberry constituent, Coptis has been or Berberine has been used for the treatment of Lyme disease already and Honeysuckle has some studies in there relating to syphilis and all their infectious diseases. So I came to the conclusion that these plants are actually the remedies to Lyme disease.
Is this sort of like a light cures like kind of thing?
Yeah. It sort of is. And it it and it sort of makes sense, you know, invasive plants for treating invasive diseases like this. And I I found that to be true to a great extent throughout many of these plants. Many of these plants have strong antimicrobial properties, antitoxin properties, helping the liver detoxify.
And so, yes, there is this this synergy between the two that that it's really neat how they mirror each other.
So so you always hear about, like, oh, we've gotta go to the rainforest to find this one little plant that's gonna have the miracle cure of whatever, but meanwhile, it's all right under our noses.
Yes. Yes. In most cases, it is.
Gosh.
It does take us a while to realize that.
Yeah. Because we want something more exotic than blackberry rooted.
Yep.
Wow. You know, the northwest up here could have a whole another industry that doesn't even know. You know?
Exactly. And, you know, that's that's part of it. These these plants can provide these micro industries for the the populations in which they grow. Mhmm.
You know? And and, you know, cottage industries of herbalists collecting these plants. And then, you know, instead of importing kudzu from China, get it from the southeast. You know, China is actually importing a lot of the south eastern Cuju these days because it is so plentiful.
Wow. And then and then we and then we when we buy it back in pills?
Yeah. Oftentimes, yeah. Yes.
Yes. Yes.
Oh. So there there are so many great opportunities here. I see it as great opportunity because they are so prevalent everywhere.
Yeah. You know, because I often a lot of herbalists will say, like, oh, you know, you wanna use the plants that grow right side our dirkus often. You know, they're they follow us. Like, you know, if we need a certain plant that it's probably growing right outside our door.
And the thing is, like, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if I believe that these plants like, oh, I have a liver issue. Wow. What do you know?
Dandelion just happened to pop up in my yard. I mean, that's a little too far fetched for me. But then again, like, you know, those invasive plants just are everywhere anyway, so they're probably just there. Yep.
And a lot of us almost everywhere I mean, none of us could use some dandelion on a regular basis.
Exactly. So, Japanese knotweed, you know, that that fascinated me.
You know, when I was reading your book, a couple of plants really fascinated me in here because, you know, you you you hear if you're when well, I guess when I when I picked it up, I was thinking, oh, you know, this is great because, hey, I love dandelion and plantain and I love, some of these books and I mean, these herbs and and I use them a lot and and this must be what the book is about. But, when I when I opened it, and even looked in the last section, the last part which has a lot of plant monographs, a lot of information in there about specific plants. The ones that really struck me, a couple of them specifically were like, Ilanthus, tree of heaven, which is really prevalent back east.
Yeah, I haven't really seen any in the northwest here, but I remember it, from one in the east coast. And then and Japanese knotweed, which I I met when I was a northwest resident here, so I never really saw it in the East Coast. But it is tons of it out here too. In fact, we we harvest it and when it's and shoots and and make crisp with apples and, you know, like, make a dessert with it. Yeah.
And then and then that you're that you that these are some of the plants that you were talking about. And so that was really cool. Like and I was like, wow. I never really, you know, realized that ailanthus and Japanese knotweed had such were so incredibly medicinal and and even researched, you know, that that blew me away. I never really thought about Japanese knotweed. And so, talk about Japanese knotweed and and your experience with it.
Yeah. Well, I, again, was introduced to it back by the owner treating Lyme disease, and that was two thousand four. And and basically, at that point, I was harvesting knotweed my own and and grinding it up into powder, encapsulating it for those folks who came to see me for Lyme. And, so I got to know it very personally that way.
And basically, it's the plant that I most use in my practice and go through quite a bit of it. And I've been using it specifically for the central nervous systems related to Lyme disease.
You know, there's often brain fog and memory issues, other central nervous system issues that are impinged and affected.
And with that as well with its strong influence on the central nervous system, it also has the ability to address all their cerebral issues as far as potentially Parkinson's and, Alzheimer's and other neurodegenerative diseases.
It contains that compound resveratrol, which has gained a lot of notoriety lately as that the the benefit of drinking red wine.
And not we contains more resveratrol than any other plant in the world.
And pharmaceutical companies are buying out all their pharmaceutical companies for hundreds of millions of dollars because of this single compound.
And oftentimes, these supplement companies and pharmaceutical companies harvest knotweed specifically for this this compound.
So, there's a lot of research out there on resveratrol and it is the main compound, but knotweed other compounds that have been studied throughout the world, for their, you know, anti inflammatory and life enhancing abilities.
Is it something you take on a use on a regular basis as well or is it just when you have a situation, where you might need it?
You know, I I'm taking it on a regular basis myself and thinking of it as, you know, that resveratrol, supplement, but also knowing that the plant is I think of it also as a tonic in a way strengthening the immune system from a deeper area, also helping, brain function overall.
And I haven't had any issues with folks taking it long term and use it both in acute and chronic cases and increase to potentially pretty high doses Wow. Of the herbs for extended period of time.
Wow. So on a on a regular basis, someone was taking that. Was it just like if you tinctured it, you're just taking a dropper or something a day or is it there? What what what's effective?
It? Yeah. It's a base dose like that, a dropper full or a capsule two or three times a day.
Well, I'm just on our site, we often talk about plants you're taking on a regular basis. We often focus mostly on nourishing herbs and herbal infusions and things like that. But this is more of a tonic type of plant where you would have on a regular basis but in a small amount, right?
Yeah.
You know, that's a good place to start and, you know, especially if you're not dealing with Lyme disease.
So, yes, you could take it on a on a extended time scale at smaller doses as a tonic. Yes. Now Yeah.
It's also Go ahead.
Sorry.
It also used it as, prevention too.
That was my question.
Okay.
So prevention. Exactly. Prevention. You can actually prevent, like, if you get bitten by a a deer tick and the spirochete enters your system, you you can actually prevent Lyme disease. Right, honey?
Well, you know, the idea is to keep your immune system strong, ideally. And if you have some of these herbal compounds that address an infection at the same time, then yes, it can help potentially prevent or help, the severity if there is an infection, if you're taking it ahead of time. That's knotweed is, as far as prevention is secondary. I would use astragalus, obviously.
Right. A good tonic.
Right.
And that would serve a good prevention.
I I I guess I never thought of a you know, like we all know about the cold, you can have a room full of people and everyone can have a cold virus and if all those people with strong immune systems are not gonna pick it up or maybe if two people are stressed out and they'll be the ones to pick it up, you know, that these viruses are always around us. That is when we have a weakened immune system. And and so that, I I always just kind of thought this. So, like, Lyme disease is one of these, or the or the the spirochete is one of these, like, we're just gonna get in there anyway and drill our way in there and there's nothing you can do about it. So you're saying that's not the case necessarily that if you have a really strong you have a strong immune system that very well you you might not get it.
Yes. And, you know, when coming to Lyme disease, it's there's a lot of controversy and there's it's difficult to say with certainty anything about Lyme disease. So with that, you know, if someone is still infected with Lyme disease, but they have a stronger constitution and healthy immune system, they're less likely to have the full effects whereas vice versa if you have a compromised immune system and get infected then you're more likely to get really sick and chronic. But definitely some people can still get it and keep it at bay for years and on the end if if if they do keep their system strong.
So so it can it can actually go then just dormant in your system and you and then you so you you you can either get it and get effects. You can either just not let it take hold and it just Or the third option is that it does get in you, but it goes dormant and it's waiting for the right opportunity to a weak a weakened stressed immune system to to come out favorable conditions.
Yeah.
So it can be either of all of the or, you know, one or Yeah. Because I I I remember getting it one time and it was they they knew enough to that to raise awareness about the bull's eye ring which I had and I went and I took a course of antibiotics and then I never had a symptom after that.
But you yourself have had it and actually dealt with it all with herbs.
Yes. Yes. Wow. I I got pretty sick myself and and chose not to use antibiotics. Yeah. Yeah.
And then right. And that's and so that's what that's a great story to read in your book as well because that was pretty cool. Like that was because because that's one of those Where I live, some West Coast people might not be going, Oh, yeah. Well, don't worry about that.
There's not lives as he's out here. But there is because I have a friend. It's not it's not it's not, you know, is prevalent but, there's a lot of people with weird symptoms that are getting misdiagnosed out here because it's not that common and I do have a friend who's convinced that he had Lyme disease and I knew the symptoms he was going through. And then when he said that, I went, Oh, you're right.
That's got to be it.
Yeah.
Yep. It's one of those things that's getting to be everywhere, unfortunately.
Yeah.
And and and and what's really cool is that on Green Dragon Botanicals, if I guess the step someone would do if they have Lyme disease would would probably be by Stephen Buhner's book, which you should do, if you have Lyme disease or wanna learn about it ahead of time.
But, what's cool is that your site, Green Dragon Botanicals, is that you're processing and selling, herbs, you know, in relation to the protocols that he talks about in there. Right?
Yes. Yes. Exactly.
I used to use all the individual herbs and, I, you know, at a certain point, I I tried to put them all together and people really liked it, and the response was really good. And and so I it sort of took off that way. And and it and it with people with Lyme, it it's really helpful to make things as simple as possible.
Mhmm.
And so that was part of my objective here. Just simplify things and make it easier for folks to take it on a long term basis.
So yeah. And and now it's, you know, it's one of my main things right now and and knotweed is, you know, the main herb that I am selling through there. Yeah.
And and and so the the knot and the knotweed in the in the capsule is a big part of the formulas that you're putting together. People just like if they have Lyme disease that they're just taking a cut to oh, it needs a couple of capsules of this and it gets in your bloodstream somehow and helps out? Like, just that little bit, it always amazes me.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, we do potentially go up to pretty high doses. Mhmm.
But yeah. Yeah. They're they're pretty potent, herbs. Wow. Yeah.
So, yeah, it doesn't you know, it's different for everyone. And sometimes, just a little is all I need. Strong the herbs are strong enough that way.
Right. And you always recommend do you recommend that if somebody has a chronic illness like that that they just, you know, that they're that they're working with someone who's knowledgeable, in the beginning? Okay. They should just go and, you know, just start, you know, treating themselves that way if they're not sure.
Right. Right. That's that's wise to consult with someone.
But a lot of people, they don't have you know, I I don't know what your opinion on this is, but a lot of people, you know, especially members of of our site, they come from all over and they come from places that a lot of times from places where, you know, they don't they don't have a they're not living in Vermont or they're not living in Washington state where there's a lot of natural health people where they can go and consult with and and learn from. And And so where do people turn? If someone's living kind of further out or lives miles and miles from a place where you know, there are consultants or people they can talk to. What do you recommend that they they do if they say, oh, I've got Lyme disease? And, you know, what what would be their steps to to get that figured out?
Yeah. Well, I think, yes, the book is the first and foremost place to start. An excellent book, not only describing the illness and the spirit heats themselves, but the the herbal protocol that I make use of. And, you know, I do talk over the phone with a lot of folks who aren't near and and that does is a good place to start, you know, get things started that way. And and, you know, as they begin to understand how the herbs work and they see how it's affecting them, they most people can get a good handle on that themselves and over the long term, begin to figure out how to work with it. But, to get going, I I often do phone consults.
Okay. That's good. I know we kinda morph the conversation towards Lyme disease treatment, but I I just I realized as I opened that can of worms that, I kinda had to go in that direction because people are gonna be listening to this and wanting to know, like, you know, because that is something that comes up.
So, but in book, in in the book, Invasive Plant Medicine, you do go in to detail. I mean, I'm just flipping barberry, bindweed, blackberry, dandelion, ivy, honeysuckle, knotweed, thistles, kudzu, plantain, loose strife, reeds, you know, Scotch broom, Ilanthus, white mulberry, wild mustards, bros. I mean, that's just some of them that you have detailed information in here that has, you know, about plant chemistry and pharmacological actions and dosage and harvesting and preparing.
So if we wanna get us on a specific level to learn more about these, you know, we learned a little bit about knotweed here.
But, of course, there's only so much you can cover in this short interview.
Artemisia, I got color photos in here, that we recommend just taking a look in the book, of course.
And also just some of these, larger ecological and medicinal perspectives on invasive plants that, you know, I gotta, you know, congratulate you on doing such a nice concise job on putting that all in a nice package for us. Like, you know, like, it's never really been done before.
Because I've always been the person, around here. When you're Tim, I don't know about out there, but you get a lot of folks who get into plants and they really wanna put stuff in a box. You They really wanna say, like, all right, it's all about native plants and we're just gonna do it. That's all we're gonna do. And sometimes it's just so hard ideologically to go into that explanation with people about why you might wanna think about dandelions or some using some of these other plants. Right? Do you find do you have that in your area too?
That they're like, oh, I just do native plants.
Yeah. There's plenty of that around. Yes. And, you know, it and it's I I'm definitely all for native plants myself Of course.
And especially the endangered ones. Mhmm. And and yes. We you know, at this point, we're all native here.
You know, at a certain point, we're all part of this global planet in this native Earth. And yes, it is sort of, how do we step out and and sort of try to see this thing from a a greater perspective and how to make use of that which is around us because, obviously, things aren't aren't going well for us with the way we're doing it. And so we do need to make a change. And and specifically, in my case, the this is an idea of invasive plants.
And and, you know, they're all plants, and there's no such thing as a good and a bad plant as far as I'm concerned.
Mhmm. So, it's it's hard for me to hear some of that native rhetoric too, though I I do understand it.
But, you know, the plant a plant is a plant.
And, It's like you can't control it.
You can't, like, you can't put the plants in a box, and these invasive species have proven that. So you might as well just go look and see, okay, how can we use this to better our planet and move forward while protecting and reestablishing native habitat? We can do it all at the same time.
Yes.
Tim, thanks a lot for that. It's been really great to have you on. And, now are you going to be at the International Herb Symposium?
Yes. I'm gonna be at the International. I'll be teaching a couple of classes, one on invasive plants and one on Lyme disease. Well, perfect.
Yes.
I just wanna say that about to get there.
I just wanna say that learning herbs dot com is a, proud sponsor of the International Herbs Symposium and that is in Massachusetts in, in towards late June in two if you're listening to this, at a later time, in the future, but, this is in twenty eleven we're talking about. So, you can go to internationalherb symposium dot org or just, I think it's O R G. But anyway, just Google International Herb Symposium and it'll come right up. Highly recommend it. It's, tons of people there, amazing herbalist. And for, your book, Tim, you have invasive plant medicine dot com.
Yeah. And for Lyme disease and all your treatments that you do, green dragon botanicals dot com. But I found it interesting that you actually sell the book on green dragon botanicals dot com, but not on the invasive plant medicine dot com site.
Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. I I guess I should do something about that. Yeah.
You gotta work on that or at least have a link. Like, buy buy here and then come over to Yeah.
But, you can get, Steven Buhner's, Lyme disease book at Tim's site as well, in addition to all his great, Japanese knotweed remedies. But you can read about the book at invasive plant medicine dot com. And, that's great. And and if you get it from you, Tim, I always recommend buying it from the author. So please go there because it supports the author. They get more of a cut. And, and, will you autograph it for people?
Or I would love to.
Yeah. Great.
And, also, if, you can check out invasive plant medicine dot com for for speaking engagement dates too.
So But I recommend going to the International Herb Symposium because it rocks and you can see Tim and all these other amazing herbalists.
Alright.
So, Tim, thanks so much for joining us today. Really appreciate you taking your time.
Yeah. You're welcome, John. Thanks for having me.
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