From HerbMentor.com, this is Herb Mentor Radio.
You are listening to Herb Mentor Radio on HerbMentor.com. I'm John Gallagher. My guest today is Caroline Gagnon. Caroline started teaching and practicing herbalism in nineteen ninety five and is cofounder and director of the Flora Medicine School of Herbal Studies in Montreal, Quebec. She also helped create the professional wing of the herbalist guild in Montreal. Carlene is teaching at Jim McDonald's place July twenty seventh to the twenty ninth in two thousand twelve in Michigan.
You can visit herbcraft dot o r g slash c a r o for that class, but you can visit caroline any old time you would like at flora medicina f l o r a m e d I c I n a dot com. And don't worry. This site also has an English component, so you're good there. Welcome, Caroline.
Or I should say, Hey, Devin.
I see John. Great. That was great. Thank you.
And and and could you you I I didn't pronounce your school correctly as it should be. So could you pronounce it as you would in French?
Floramis. But, I mean, it it it can be said. It's it's fine. It's perfectly fine.
Well, thank you. Okay. That's as much French as you're getting out of me. Alright. So I was, so I was on the phone with, Jim McDonald the other day, and I I asked him.
I said, who should I interview for June since, my June guest kept delaying on me, you know, which is kinda weird. And so he tells me I should interview you. And then I'm like, oh, that sounds great. It's telling me about you.
And then five seconds into that conversation, he goes into the call waiting and comes back and goes, guess who's on the other line? And I said, my June Herb Mentor radio guest.
And here you are. So thank you.
That's really because we don't talk often, Gemini. So on the phone.
Yeah. That is was quite that was quite cool. Okay. So, the the connection on Skype wasn't great there.
So I'm gonna continue here. I just called Caroline back on her telephone the old fashioned way. And, so, Caroline, I have some herbmentor dot com questions here. I wanna ask a little, member questions, ask a little later in the show.
But I wanna start by getting to know you a bit. Did you did you grow up in Montreal?
No. No. I didn't grow up in Montreal. I grew up around Quebec City, the old the old Quebec City, but I, I also lived in British Columbia as a kid and that's where I learned English.
English. Fast.
Wow.
And then and then came went back to live there, after, after college and, high school college. And then, and then I met this amazing herbalist, which is, Carol McGrath. I don't know if you know of her or of or her.
Yeah. It's also her.
And that's where I started my apprenticeship for a year and a half and started practicing and then came back into Montreal.
And it was so hard for me to live in the city, but what was great about it was that I really went deep into, urban herbalism and then, you know, brought a lot of people into the back alleys and, you know, did amazing projects in the city. And one was, heroin heroin? You You know, the drug?
Yeah. Heroin.
Heroin. Mhmm. Withdrawal with, young young kids, you know you know, fourteen, fourteen till, till twenty with herbs and, you know, did a lot of activism activism with, herbalism and then moved to the country seven years ago. So now I'm in a very, very peaceful place and have, you know, big gardens and would produce the herbs for the school clinic.
So so you you basically, had an appreciation for nature when you're a kid because you live in BC, but you spend a lot of time outside. But Yeah. Do you have did you, like, work with plants or have any, like, people in your family that taught you anything or what was it that interested you?
Not at all. I it's really not in my family but the love of nature was was strong in my mom. She would, she was she would bring us with our snowshoe shoes in the in the woods and then we would start a fire and roast some, some wieners. And, but I was I think nature was so present for me in my in my childhood and it was easier for me to be to be friends with a tree than with a human being.
And I remember playing, like like going up on the on the counter in the kitchen, opening up the, the the cabinets and then playing with herbs, like basil and parsley and and rosemary and turmeric, and then they were all, personas.
So so they were my playmates despite the fact that so I guess I had an inclination.
So you've been doing this you've been talking with plants for quite a while now.
Oh. All my life. All my life. As as long as I can remember. Yeah.
Isn't that amazing?
And then And then they would respond.
So that was that was that was great.
Oh, well, tell you about that.
Well, when I had, when I had deep issues in my life or, you know, as as a as a child, child, like hard times, I would it was a pear tree and I'm just thinking of one, one time. And then I went to that pear tree and I asked questions and I would talk to the tree and and I would ask it to respond to me with, with a leaf And the leaf would say yes or no and we sort of, you know, got our codes right.
And, yeah. And then my mom came and and said, but it's the only leaf moving in the tree. And I'm like, but of course, as a child.
Right.
The most obvious thing.
Right. But how did how did she know? I mean, I think you were right there, you know?
Yeah. Well, I guess, you know, and as you know, life speaks to us. It's just that, I guess, nobody really told me that it didn't.
And, yeah.
Well, that's important. Maybe we should not tell our kids. You know, we should tell our kids.
Keep them in place that they can and that it will respond.
Exactly. Yes. Yes. That's right.
And but the other thing that that I think was there also was herbalism and that's what I got when I finally, nineteen twenty found, like, out that herbalism existed because I had, you know, it was really inexistent and and around me. But I remember when I was eight, I told my mom how important we had to remember something in our past to be able to to live our lives and go forward in the future. And, and then at nine or ten, I discovered archaeology. I was like, oh, that's neat.
That that that brings that knowledge back. But when I I first got my courses in in herbalism, I was like, this is it. This is the knowledge that needs to be to be brought back. Mhmm.
Because it's living knowledge. It's archeology. Well, it's, you know, it's just information, ancient wisdom we could go forward with.
Yeah. Yeah.
Wow.
Exactly. Yeah. So I guess I guess it was always there because when I started to learn herbalism, I remember my first class, I started dreaming about herbs with so much information, you know, in my in my dreams and I would, you know, wake up in the morning and then look through books to find the pictures of what I saw in my dreams and it was exactly what it or, you know, parts of it was was what was taught in my dream. So so it was it was just all there so I learned really really fast and I thought that was brilliant, but then I tried to learn acu acupuncture and that was a lot harder.
Oh. I was like, oh, so there's, you know, a bank of knowledge that was easier to access with herbalism than with with other other things.
Is that because it was a more of a direct connection between you and what your experience with the plants versus you and the bank of knowledge that was sort of interpreted by somebody else? Yeah. I guess so. I guess so. Yeah.
And that's what's amazing with with herbalism and as, you know, and are you practicing, John? Do you do you see clients?
No. Well, I'd actually, I do an acupuncture but I don't in I don't in her in herbs. I, I I just I I I do this.
Well, you know, when you when you give an an herb and you probably do like with your kids or friends or and you give an herb to somebody, something in them remembers and responds Mhmm. Right away. So it's really built inside us, you know, that knowledge is is all there because we've used it since humanity.
So it's on the earth.
So there's like a is it sort of like a pattern recognition or something or, how do you I don't know what it is, but it is recognition for sure.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Now I, so thanks for telling us because, you know, what I like to do is, every every person I interview, I love asking that because people because people can see themselves in people's stories and they go, oh. Yeah. I feel that too.
You know, and and then they could know that, wow. And then she really wanted to do this. So then she found an apprentice or a school to work with and and and and that's then what you went on to do is is Yeah.
Part of school. And I remember the first day, the first class I had with Cal, I stepped out of that of that class and it it was like stepping into my path. Like, you know, when you're like, oh, I'm into my life now. And I could and I saw myself doing that for, you know, the rest of my life until I was very, very old, till ninety five or something. So and and then and then I started doing herbalism and all the ways that you can do herbalism every day since then. It's been my life.
Mhmm. And it's so fulfilling.
And there are so many ways to go about it too, aren't you?
I know. And that's why and I'm such a curious person and, and passionate also. So when when and I and I love science and I love nature and I love people and the psyche and and it was just like the thing that could where everything that I love could be in one place and I could never, stop learning.
Jim's house or I guess it's at his house or at Jim's house at Uh-huh.
I guess it's at his house or somewhere near there.
Somewhere in the It depends on how many people.
Yeah.
You you know? Or how big Jim's house is. I don't know. Yeah.
You can always teach outside.
But but I, yeah, you are doing a day on it on energetics and plan energetics. Yeah. And so so I guess I was wondering a place where we could start. Because when I look at your your website and your school, that that's a a big part of of of how you approach things as an herbalist. Yeah. And so I'd if it's okay, we could start there.
So how do you define, planned herbal energetics? What exactly what is that?
Well, the I it's what I define, but what I'll teach at gyms is, you know, it's like it's such a big thing, plant energetics, but, like what we know as our what you'll read in a book is, okay, is it hot, is it dry, is it damp, Is it, you know, is it hot? Is it cold?
But that's that's like the basic, I guess flavor or we'll call that quality of a plant. Mhmm. But when I when I what I teach what I'll teach at Jim's is a lot more broader. Mhmm. It's I guess, it's how the plant will move into your body as in in a whole experience, which is really hard to describe with words, but that your body has the ability to understand all that movement that that words will only, reduce, you know? Like, because it's it's it's multi dimensional.
As you know, herbs are living beings and so their energetic, movement or patterns or messages are way bigger than just hot and cold or dry and damp or, you know?
Right. So there's more to the there's more to the the overall picture that you're trying to help people get in touch with.
Yeah. So let's say, well, I'll make you and everybody listening to that past podcast, feel like that that thing. So, just check your body for a minute. Like, okay, is it like, how's my energy? Is it, you know, very active? Is it settled? How is it in the lower part of my body, higher part of my body?
How does it feel in my core, on the surface of my skin?
And just, you know, get a sense of what's living right now in your body.
Okay.
You got that? Mhmm. Okay. Now think of ginger.
Okay. And then feel what shifts in your body.
Mhmm.
So what do you feel?
I feel well, first of all, I was feeling a little unsettled, you know, because it's, there was a lot getting techy stuff together for this call and a coffee and I was feeling kinda buzzy, feeling kinda.
So you thought your your coffee feeling?
Yeah. So I kinda have that, kinda going. And so when I when I, brought Ginger in, definitely, I felt a warming and I felt, kind of bringing things to more of the surface though.
Like Exactly.
That's the thing. It's like you almost feel your skin, like Yeah. The inside coming to your skin with the warmth.
And then you can even feel, like, your pores opening up.
Right.
Yeah.
Because I was like, well, I don't know if I would use ginger right now because I Exactly. I I need I need burdock.
That's great, Dawn, because that's exactly what trying to really figure out the energetic of an herb, but then fitting it with your own energetic and then seeing just by, you know, taking a drop if you've never tasted the herb or just thinking about the herb. Oh, how will that energetic, which is very broad, work with my energetic right now, which is, you know, very broad, which is like two two packets of information meeting, and then you already felt it in your body and then we could, you know, work and go deeper and see like how that works in your kidneys or liver or, you know, in your brain or and then and then finding out, you know, information about how ginger works for you and then when you're working with a client you can figure that out too.
So for me working with energetics is really paying attention deep deep deep attention to what it is. So it could be sitting with a plant and then feeling that, but working with your body as a tool to learn what an herb does and not just your taste buds.
Do do you see the meaning of that?
Yes. This is really interesting because I think that I bet you that's a a way that the more people work with plants, the more they must intuitively act and maybe not realize they're doing it.
I know. They do.
And we do it.
I mean and and, of course, you know, any food, plant, if you're eating any vegetables or whatever that they're on Earth.
So it's like so it's like is it similar to, like, well, I'm hungry. I wanna go look in the fridge. What do I feel like eating? And you sit and you meditate on it and you try to picture what all those foods would do if I ate it.
Well, if I had Yeah. That tomato sauce, it would make my stomach feel, you know, or Yeah. Yeah. Is it like that?
We'll we'll use that technique with people with IBS or with because even before you put it into your mouth, your body will tell you how how it will react to it.
So so that's like two two things because I work with body intelligence and other ways to, you know, get to understand the disease or, help to to get the things harmonized or whatever. But the, you know, I've never felt happy taking a pill like like my vitamin b supplement. I never think, oh, wow, I'm gonna go get my vitamin b and so happy and oh, so good. I never I never crave it, you know?
Never ever crave to fight it, you know, vitamin b supplement. Yeah. But I do with with all my herbs, right, that supplement. Yeah.
But I do with with all my herbs, right, that my body needs. So learning that craving and what does it mean and and then finding out and sometimes even my craving would tell me, oh, I'm craving this. So I'm gonna I'll go into my body and then I'll see, oh, this is happening.
Oh, that's why I need this. And then I can shift things. And then and that happened to me one time when I when I had, I was on a trip in, New Brunswick and I had to pee so bad and we were on the road and then I just, okay, stop. And then opened the door, you know, pulled my pants down, peed, and then I said, oh, darn. I was in the midst of, like, a freshly cut patch of poison ivy.
Oh.
Yeah. And I was like, okay.
And then and then eventually, it started to to really, really itch. And I and for the life of me, I couldn't find any, jewelweed or even any plant fir, a forest.
And, and then I sat in my my my tent and then I started thinking about jewelweed and then and then feeling it in my body, and it felt so relieving. And then my poison ivy went away as if I had taken the herb.
Woah. So you brought in the the energetics. The the you're able to create that in your Yeah.
In your Well, because the the plant truly well, I love eating them, you know, taking them, getting the the, you know, molecules inside my body.
But the thing is that a plant is does not have necessarily an action on your body, but has a call to action on your body. Because if you put like comfrey on a dead man's wound, it won't heal.
Like, even if comfrey is a really good wound healer because the body's dead.
But what Comfrey will do to a cell is is really give a message to the cell and it's the cell that replicates and heals. Right?
Mhmm.
So that information, like like you just felt with the ginger, it is always there, it is always available and your body has that intelligence to to sort of like or the receptors and the intelligence to response to respond to it. Either your body needs it or not, then you'll feel it. Wow. But it's just so the energetics of plants for me is, intrinsically linked to paying attention to the energetics of your body and then that shift.
Now All it comes from that.
Does this also work on a mental or emotional spiritual level too with the plants and the pattern, you know, the way you're speaking?
Of course. I mean, physical, emotional, spiritual, like, you know, there it's all the same. It's you. Mhmm. It's it's not different.
It's it's just you.
Well, you know what? This is but this is kinda making, alright. This is for for me hearing you say this is is it's a very eloquent and more, easier pill to swallow, I should say, no pun intended, but, with with how herbs affect our emotional selves.
Mhmm.
Or because now it But I mean, you do it more now.
You you you're an acupuncturist?
Well, yeah. I get it. But I'm just trying to think, like, how as I'm explaining it to someone, I always think of the person who's not getting it.
Like who who would have a, you know Okay.
Yeah. Yeah. I understand. So be to somebody who thinks that they're all those parts of them are very separate.
Right. They need separate tools to fix them. Okay. Well, then I'll use other tools which I, I'll be teaching in Vermont.
And usually when I teach the in the the I'm doing a weekend in Vermont, in September and the first day is working with the plant syringetics, in a way that I sort of outlined a bit.
And the second day is working with the body intelligence.
And I worked a lot with a mod my own modified form of focusing. Have you heard of that technique?
No.
It's used in, psychotherapy.
It's really, really, really amazing.
So tell us a little about like TOE.
And and working with focusing is working with mind body, our awareness and when you tap into that you'll feel, you feel because you're inside your body, you feel your emotions related to something in your belly.
You feel it. It's there. It's an experiential thing. So it's not something that you have to believe or not because you're in it. You feel it. And because it's so right, it makes so much sense.
It's it's, you know, when something makes sense, it's like it's always been there. Right?
Right.
And so when you you're in the moment and not in your an analytical mind Mhmm.
And that's where you can put judgment or you can compartmentalize things. Mhmm. It's a hard word to say.
Just perfect.
In English. But, you know, when when and that's that's your left brain. That's like a really small part of you that judges and analyzes and thinks that you're separate. But I mean, all your cells, the rest of your whole body doesn't think that.
And when you tap into that, you're like, of course not, you know? It's just, of course not. There's no other place to be. And so but what's what's hard is to bring people in that state for them to get that knowledge and and to get into that state, you have to be in your body and not just in that analytical mind.
And, I guess that's the that's the teaching of it.
Does it make sense?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It does. And, because in the in the I do the five element acupuncture, which is very know, body, mind, spirit, and and I and I and I see these direct you know?
Yeah. I see very, very concrete results in people, you know, spiritual, you know, development and healing and and everything. It's it's just so it's to me, it's as plain to see as as putting, you know, a salve on a cut and appealing, you know, or something.
You know, like but, it's always it's always, like I said, it's tough for people to touch it. Client, if your client comes in and does not think that or, you know, has that image of him that's separated and comes, you know, to treat, like, I don't know, ulcers, and then you start treating him.
And then as the treatment goes on, things are activated in him. Right? There so emotions come and so he will feel all that. And because it is coherent with, you know, him as a human being, he'll feel that it is related because it will be an experiential state. And so that really, you know, shapes the our society's belief or, you know, recent society belief that all those things are are not connected.
Now, do you have an example for us from a plant like take an herb that you have worked with a client and, and it came in for a certain situation or even maybe a different situation, but the herb helped something else that you noticed. I don't know. Just something that kind to make it a little more concrete for people to kinda like, oh, okay.
That's what they're talking about.
Yeah. Well, many things like any anybody who uses Rycey will have big life epiphanies. Right. Right.
But let's say I had a client who came in with, depression and a lot of anxiety and, yeah, very, very, very, very closed, very, yeah, I'm liking the word but, guarded.
Very closed. Yeah.
And then I gave her, I think, like three drops of pulfatilla.
Mhmm. And then her art opened. And then there was joy. Like, there was joy there.
And then that that needs to be worked on, but still, like, she totally felt like, oh, there's a opening.
Or even when when you have, like, troubles with your bowels or inflammation and then you cut off some foods that are you gluten intolerant, then you just cut off gluten, then then you get happy, you know, in your in your head. You're you get clear thinking and and and so just affecting the way you eat, you'll feel better. Like it will affect your your psyche. Or any herbs like working with, herbs with dreams, like lemon balm.
I've had we had a client that's, at the school clinic, a couple of weeks ago, and he had, eczema that came up after, breakup, which is really hard. And his heart is all closed up. And then we started working with lymphatics and, lemon balm. And lemon balm for me is a herb that really helps to let go of things and and also like brings vivid dreaming.
So there's like a lot of your limbic system that works in Okay. It's like looking at the situation very differently. And so he came back and, said, that a lot of what happened in the month, like, his his eczema wasn't gone and then we changed our approach, but the a lot of things that came back was like, oh, I dreamt a lot. And as I stayed with what, you know, that all that pain and it was just I could see the rest of my life and the rest of my life was not just that moment but many things and it made gave him a perspective.
Oh, wow. So I guess herbs affect people, like, there is some predictable way, like, we know that that positivity or I've seen positivity really opening up the heart and connecting connecting it to the head. There's really a peaceful sense that comes with that, but there are herbs that people take and it opens up stuff that is stuck in them. So what will come of that is always something that I don't know because it's new and it's them that is, their energy that is released and, you know, it's a surprise to me.
It's a surprise to them. That's just fascinating. It's great. It's a great job.
This is so much fun because this is like the herbal version of the that I practice. And I was like, oh, I'm just like, oh, wow. This is cool. I do that too. Yeah. And it's really what I teach.
Like, the there's it's a four year program. The one that I'm teaching in Montreal. It's big. Like, there's a lot of science because I think it's really nice to learn and understand the body and also learn the vocabulary so we can talk to oncologists and and pharmacists so we can start building bridge and the dialogue. But we know that that's not what's truly helpful to healing.
But to really, sort of form yourself as a healing tool. And how we do that through the years is to start applying so, like, a truckload of compassion to ourselves and to start, you know, melting those places that are harsh to ourselves that, you know, don't the places that can't fail, the places that feel inferior or posture or powerless. Not that they will go away, but that that they have a place where they can be, you know, accompanied by ourselves with so much compassion that that they're not, you know, in the back of our, you know, in the back and then doing things in our shadows. But so
we can sit with a client and that's really what I think is, the most important part of our of my teaching is is to bring my students in that place where they're open hearted, open minded, and that they have the use of their right brain and not just their left brain, which gives them access to the learned knowledge that they they acquired of the years and, you know, through the teachers or the readings that they've that they had. But the right brain, that's where intuition comes from. It's just having access to knowledge that's alive there in front of you. But to have access to that, you can't be constricted or stressed or anxious or shut down.
You have to be open hearted. And to to do that, you have to give yourself a compassionate place and then the other. And then that's where magic happens because you then are with everything that's there, and that's unknown, maybe to science, maybe to herbalism, maybe to, you know, whoever, to yourself.
And then and then you can work with that.
And, and then the process or the healing process is always new and unknown. And it's just I don't know how to describe it, but it's just, yeah, working with with oneself and accompanying oneself with compassion and then that brings awareness, of so many other things that are alive and it and it gives the person in front of you freedom to do the healing process that he or she needs to do and that nobody in the ring right now knows that we will uncover as it reveals itself.
So what I'm and, you know, most of the people, listening to this, they're, they're thinking to themselves probably, alright. Now how would I kinda bring this into my life? And someone did have a question on on our mentor there, about that. And and what I what I'm hearing is that there's kind of a couple of things going on here. There's one.
There's, getting more in touch with yourself and, and and, compassion for yourself and compassion for others and working on yourself emotionally and spiritually. But and at the same time, I guess, by just having experiences and making remedies and whatnot with various plants is the only way I can really or gardening or all these things are the ways to learn about the plants. Like, for example, when you do that ginger exercise, if you had Mhmm. Told me about a plant I never used before, I would be like, You know, like, I maybe couldn't do that yet, but, but I only would know that because I had those experiences.
So I'm just wondering, is that am I am I going down the right path here in in these kind of two things?
Like, I mean, somebody somewhere had to sit with a plan for the first time. Mhmm. And and, what I do with my students is that I, you know, will will just all sit. We did that last summer. That was that was a great great time with around, Siberian ginseng.
And, you know, I didn't tell them it was Siberian ginseng. Most of them never saw that plant alive, like, they saw it cut in a bag.
So they just sat around that plant. And then, like, I think ninety percent of people said, Oh God, I feel like energy. I feel like my spine's on fire. Mhmm. And, like they would describe it in in their own words, but they were all correct, you know?
I know. I do know that. I've done that. Yeah. Mhmm.
So so it's just I guess it's what's hard is is relaxing oneself in our mind, in our heart and and trusting that what your body and what your whole spirit tells you, you know, has meaning. And that's the hardest part in in our culture.
But and that's that just needs training. But that does not mean that I don't read books, like I'm I don't study. Like, I've studied all, not all all of everything, but I've studied all those years. Like I said, you know, I just love learning. But how do you then access that learning or that knowledge into your body and into, and and into a way that will be useful to that other person and that won't restrict your view of how you see that other person's disease, you know? Because you can sit like like I think I'm gonna do a video this summer on self heal just to, you know, rehab habitate to revalue the the use of self heal because it's one of my favorite herbs.
And The prunella.
The prunella. Yeah. Really nice. And, you know, when you read about that herb, like, it just, you know, it's well, if you don't have anything else, you'll just use that. So we've used it, you know, it's good for your wounds and but, you know, whatever. That's good.
But then and then our, you know, actually, Meliti's mental. Like, it's good for, you know, heavy bleeding if you use it for, you know, many months and it's good for the tissues around the perineum area.
And then as when you start learning herbalism, it's like your mind closes on that, and then the plant becomes just that.
Mhmm.
Like that herb is good for that. Mhmm. And and we don't stay open hearted and minded to everything else that that plant does.
Or or if we, you know, if a herbalist we trust, writes about it, like if Jim McDonald says that this point does that or Matthew Wood or, you know, whoever has credentials, then we'll find that it's, you know, valuable.
You know what I mean?
Yes. Exactly.
But, but we all have access to all that.
And, of course, our left brain has to be secured and, you know, because it is very unsecured. So we can give it a bit of knowledge so that it's settled down. It doesn't wanna take over the world. But then stay open hearted because there's so much about healing that we don't know. And I mean, you treat people who are sick and I don't know of any herbalist or acupuncture or osteopath or doctor that has all the answer, you know?
Right.
And I I don't think I have. But the other person who is in front of me, that body, that soul, has all the answer and all the energy that it needs to be well. So how do I tap into that? How do I help that other person tap into that?
Right.
And and that's what I train people to do.
And for me, like, if the person, you know, like, I was getting good, you know, did every Ayurveda, love Chinese medicine, like it's one of a great tool. And then, like, I work out this really amazing formula I'm quite proud of. Give give it to one person who's sick and then that person gets well, you know, feel great. I'm in that success place. Right. And and then that the opposite of success is failure.
But the thing is that it's not my success. It is that other person's success.
Yeah.
But in our society, we are so prone to think that healing comes from outside of our ourselves. And so I will if if I work like that, I keep that other person in that same paradigm, even if they've used hers and not pills. But it's the same paradigm.
And it's not satisfying for me because I'm I'm keeping myself in that state of either success or failure.
That doesn't feel good. But if I in that process with that client, we enter a state where we explore all the healing potential that that body or in soul has, and then we harness that, that person after they they have met me will know that they can heal themselves.
So it's it's like the the person on the body mind spirit level has the knows how to heal itself. It's just that society gets so crazy that it we forget. And so what our role in healer, whether it be for ourselves or others, is just to, you know, gently remind remind ourselves how how to be in the world. And then we go, oh, yeah. This is how I'm supposed to be. And then nature takes over.
Yeah. You know, when I was I was with those, with with those kids and withdrawal, like, and I don't know if you've ever seen somebody in heroin withdrawal.
Yeah. Yeah. I I worked at a clinic once. That's right.
Yeah. It's it's how, like like, they think every like, the whole world becomes a menace. Like, you don't have any hormones in your body that tells you that it's okay because you don't have your, your dopamine anymore. Mhmm. And so but there's the I witnessed in those in those moments, you know, those places in them that wanted to get better. Like, the the most beautiful place in them that was there because they had put themselves into withdrawal and that was the motivating force. Right?
And so as I as they are in that pitfall of, like, life is out, life is and then they're coming back slowly up. It's that place that wants to live that keeps, like, the whole body, like, like, the the the intestines, like, you know, working again and like the brain cells like starting to do, you know, trying to put dopamine back into their body and their spirit wanting something else for themselves.
And so witnessing that helps them because there's somebody outside them looking at that place that wants to get better. And because there's a witness to that, it it, you know, it's easier to to let it be and just let it grow. And when you let it go, when you step out of the way, that place of of, you know, wanting to live, it's it's quite big and powerful.
Wow.
Wow. That's great.
Alright. So I I do want to, move on to some questions, on some stuff that people have emailed in. But, I guess just to, you know, with the energetics well, you know what? Something I was curious about. Well, first of all, the person who's asking about about learning it, learning energetics, to me, it really just comes down to spending time with plants.
With the actual plant, it's your gardening, making herbs, everything.
And and and that's how you're establishing that relationship. So you can't you are and can you are really communicating with these plants.
But like in Chinese medicine and and I think it's like the the the Friday night at ten, that that's what I'll be talking about. But that's so it's like the language of qualities that you see in life and Mhmm. That for me is what energetic is. So in Chinese energetics, you'll, like, you'll look at the season, growth, and there's it's just qualities of life that you you see and feel and taste and, like, all your senses can can discern.
And that's just energetics of anything.
And then you can just apply the plant.
Is that the is that the route then you take when you're starting to refine into the skills of teaching particular plant energetics? Do you get then into the, five elements and that sort of thing?
Yeah. Well, that's a good lens. And then we can use the Ayurvedic. And then you can but all those lens are red reductionist.
And that's why I found I find that working with your body, you have all that but without words because because there's no there's no words with that. It's not in your brain. But your body and your, like, the felt, there's a sense of that. You there's there's a meaning that you can discern it and you feel the qualities of the energetics.
This this is amazing. You sound exactly like my, my acupuncture teacher. Really? Okay. Well, we we we really, the the whole part first earlier parts of the program are all about refining your self as a a healing tool and and you developing your senses and your your awareness and and all to to really hone in. And then we didn't really learn the finer points, if you will, of what the points do and this all the nitty gritty stuff until later in the program until we had that sense of a greater awareness and connection with people.
Wow.
Yeah. Wow. That was a great program. That's not not what's being taught here in Quebec.
No. It yeah. That's the, well, that's the kind of For acupuncture. Yeah. It's the five element Worsley style, and that's kind of how JR Worsley, to there's a few schools in in the US.
There's, like, four or five schools that teach that. But, but, but, yeah, it's it's very similar. And, yes. Anyway, so, that is that's that's great.
And so then, why I was wondering is because, you know, often I like hearing that because, I mean, of course, people can learn there's different ways of describing herbal energetics. Like, some people might go right to the fact that, oh, I'm tasting a a sour flavor. And therefore, it can be good for this. Or I'm tasting a warm flavor and and and this plant has that flavor.
So it could be helpful for this. And that I guess that works too, right, on a symptom Yeah.
It works. And it's great. And it and I use that. But it's just one way.
It's like just your taste buds and and not your whole body sense which gives you just a bit more information. Yeah. You understand? Like, it's just another way.
And the other thing is that if you taste it and then you you you you try to information and not a whole sense of it. That's the difference with it.
And and that's what I wanted to just get to just have you clarify for everybody because there's lots of ways of looking at things, and it's a big area.
And, and the difference between looking at from a reductionist to the point where, you know, we we can really expand ourselves and our awareness and learn about plants on so many different levels by just, you know, opening ourselves up to that different paradigm shift like you said.
And, of course, I mean, I like, I'm talking to you right now, I had to find words for that, and and they're not you know, they're partially describing it.
But, as as how you describe what ginger felt in your body, that was partially how it felt, you know? Mhmm. So, like, the Chinese found words to say that because it fitted with their culture and their and how they would communicate that knowledge to each other from, you know, with cultural references.
And the the Indians did other things, and every culture in the world had their knowledge their their wording for the energetics. But it's like we all had the same body, and so it's just, you know, it's the same thing, just with different cultural words to to describe it.
Seems like I need about ten lifetimes to get a grasp on all this.
Yeah. I think well, the good thing I say with to my students is that you can already already let go of, you know, the the fact that you can already let go of, like, the wish to know it all because you won't. So, phew, something, you know, you can get that away out of the way and then just have the fun of learning.
To stay in the place of learning. Yeah. It's staying well, you said it earlier.
Saying in that, you know, you how you had that state of curiosity and I think that all you really need is the curiosity and that if that drives you and you're always then that means you're always learning and you're always taking more in.
And the other thing also is with a client. You know, when a client comes in and you probably have that with your client, you you try something and it doesn't work and then that just, you know, sparks up my my my curiosity. I'm like, oh, why? And then, you know, not responding in the response, you know?
Right. When the body does not response, that means something. So there's so every response and non response gives me information of what's going on in the body that I didn't really see at first hand. And so staying curious to that person in front of you really leads you to what go what is underneath because you can go, oh, there is heartburn.
Let's take, you know, slippery elm and then blah blah blah, take slippery elm everyday. But then you're like, okay, so why is there heartburn? And then, oh, but why is this and then why should keep your three year old really activated? And that's that's good.
Fantastic.
Yeah. That's that's what it all comes down to is keeping your inner three year old.
You know, it it's really true. And it's really ironic too because, you know, when you're I I just was finished reading this book. I mean, of all people, Walt Disney, you know, from Disneyland and all that stuff. And, just fascinated by that character and and and who he was and how he did what he did.
And and really, this came down to the same thing at the end of the book. It was like, there's something that he always had was curiosity. He always never wanted to not know what a child felt or always always liked to play and be in that space. And that's how he was able to kind of dream up and connect with people and do what he did as well.
It was never losing the childlike curiosity for things.
Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.
That's I know you mentioned that because I just read it. Fun place to be in, you know.
Yeah.
Because you're you're in that place where you're out of that place of success of our our failure because you're in that place of experiment, you know?
Well, that that's what we do at Learning Airs. We're just one big say, lab, you know, experimental. Yeah. Yeah. And I just kinda do what sounds fun to me. You know? So like the Herb Fairies books we did or doing and all that kind of stuff with for Q and A.
So, let's get being we just have a little bit of time left since a few folks didn't ask questions.
I'd I'd like to get to a few of those. There weren't just a few anyway.
So, we do have a question. So thanks again for this. Excellent, explanation and and and, you know, just a bit of a peek into, how you approach plant energetics, which really kind of it was awesome for me to hear because it really widened my perspective. So thank you for that.
Cool. So I well, what I hear said it was already there.
Well, you know, but, it's kind of a sometimes it's a confirmation and kinda, like, also kinda ties things together for me and also, you you said it so clearly. So that was really nice.
Great.
Which gives which makes me really wanna take your classes anytime you're teaching. I'm gonna go to Michigan.
So granny, granny b is on our forum on herbincher dot com. She has asked us. She wanted to know, in a in a nutshell, what is your understanding of the impact of food on our health and how different foods impact the human body?
It's quite big.
I know. But there's probably a good overall philosophical thing you have to say.
I know, but it's quite big. But some some people, like, I I I use iridology also.
Mhmm. Iridology.
And people like they just dream, like they're they can just eat anything and Right.
And it doesn't really give an impact. But when it does, it's it really is poison. Like, I had that with my, my, my husband when I met him. Like, he had different problems and then I tried, you know, I tried, you know, working with, with plants for his, constipation and and bellyaches and liver and then eczema and then insomnia and then snoring and then, like, all those things. And then I said one time, like, okay, just stop moving. Stop moving. And he did.
And, like, all those symptoms went away.
Wow. And and then I had a child with him eventually. And had big colic. So I'm like, okay, gotta stop gluten.
And had big colic. So I'm like, okay, gotta stop gluten. And so him and his son, which is my son, but and then his mom and then his sister and then her son, like all his family. Like it's like this tree from his mom to them to their kids, they all are gluten intolerant.
And then within, you know, a year when we started figuring out that it was all related to that, like they lost weight, stop having high cholesterol, higher energy, higher concentration, lost skin problem and it's like everything. And what's the thing with the Chinese, there's a Chinese saying, like, you can take like a thousand remedy or you can just take out one poison.
Good. I'm probably not not saying it right. But it's that thing. So if, if one food is a poison to you, then, you know, working with plants or doing acupuncture or working with anything else, well, it's just like putting band aids and it's not gonna work. I haven't seen it work. But it's just when you stop taking that poison that is for you, the poison, I'm not saying that gluten is like, I was pretty glad to start eating gluten again after I breast you know, when I stopped breastfeeding.
But, but it is it it's just drastic.
So definitely trying to, like, figure out what's good for one person is is definitely the key to healing a lot of problems.
And, yeah. I would definitely go that way. I don't know if that answered that question.
Well, it's well, you know, it's a it is absolutely huge question. But, I mean, I think you kind of, you know, like she said, in a nutshell. And and so there you go. So it's really an individual journey, it sounds like. And, herbs, spices, etcetera. Yeah.
And the thing is that there's no, like, one food that's a poison for everybody. Like, I've seen people taking coffee and, you know, go to sleep and be fine, and their iris is fine, and their liver is fine, and, you know, and I take, like, decaf for a week and then I start to have, like, anxiety attacks.
Like, I'm quite sensitive.
I can't go above one cup.
I know my limit.
Okay.
This is a question from La. And she really enjoyed your perspective. She heard you, I'm imagining, at a at a maybe either online or at a live event on lymph and herbs you use to help the lymph and was wondering about lymph herbs for lymph congestion in the abdomen and was wondering if cleavers would be a good choice or any others.
Yeah. Yeah. Cleavers is good, but the thing with the lymph congestion in the abdomen is, like, we can link it to the the first question is that you really gotta find out what food, brings that about and usually it's food intolerance. So you can use all the herbs that you can find that will work on this, but you'll still have congestion.
So finding out what, messes up your lymph or congest, you know, brings congestion.
Sometimes it's usually it's dairy products that will do that. Mhmm.
Yeah. So so working with, with food would definitely be if if the only place that there is a lymph congestion.
Mhmm. Yeah. She just says says abdomen.
So she's wondering about that.
Yeah. So food could be a good clue for her. But what about, you know, adding some herbs in? Would would Gio is wondering about cleavers. Would that be a good one?
Yeah. That would be good. But in my what I'm saying is that in my experience, like, you'll just have to take cleavers for the rest of your life.
Right. And I'm aware. You're better to go, like you said earlier, to try to take out the quote unquote poison.
Yeah. Yeah. Or what brings condition. Sometimes also lymph, I see, like, lymph condition comes from, emotional retained.
Oh, right. Like like, oh, kind of yeah. Like, emotions that we're holding in.
Yeah. Yeah. And if it just happens and if her whole body is really tight, not inflamed, but more tight, like, in a in a holding, then I would massage the abdomen, but also, you know, try doing some body mind exploration of what's going on in that area and that, you know, usually brings the lymph, flowing within minutes.
Are you are you telling us to go to the root of the problem?
Yeah.
Well, over the years, you know, I find that it's, you know, quite slow. If I can't find the root within a couple of visits and I'm like, okay.
Let's explore more. But usually it it it really helps because I there's no, yeah, there's no fun in having to take, like, one herb for the rest of your life because you have that problem. Yeah. It would be better to clear it out.
Right. Right. Well, that's excellent. Excellent.
I mean, there's other herbs like ocotillo is nice and onion. Mhmm.
And yeah. Okay.
So this gets to the fun part for you. It's all fun for you, but we're getting to the end here. There was a question from Anja, and she is kinda get into talking about your school a little. And you have to say the name of it again in French first because I love hearing it.
I just wanna go there because that sounds To hear somebody and not understand anything.
Do do you do you, do do you teach is it other is the programs, in bilingual? Are you are you mostly teaching in English because of your drawing?
No. We're really teaching in French because I think, like, there's a lot of really, really great school also in English and, you know, what's the point? There's one really close that we're working with in in Vermont Mhmm. In Montpellier.
So when I go teach, in Vermont or, you know, other classes in English, I guess I try to teach what's not taught.
And, So you can have herbal and French immersion in one school right here in North America.
You don't even have to go to France, folks.
Yeah. Exactly. That's awesome. So Well, yeah. Because we're trying to do, like, student exchange and, you know, meeting with, that that that's what we're gonna do with the, the Vermont School of Herbal Studies. I just forgot their name.
The one that Guido Massey is. Like, I I I brought him to my school so he could teach, and then I have, like, twenty five students who are graduating during their clinical year and then they're gonna go and then meet their students and then they're gonna exchange, you know, their knowledge and that's it's just great.
You need to have the world. You need to have Rosalie who works at Oakman or Mentor and, she's mother of the year school. French, Well, she loves all things French.
I mean, she even married a French guy, you know.
Okay. Okay. That'd be great to have her over then. Yeah. That be great. Yeah. And she does, I just read an article on, her that that she wrote on, Plant Healer magazine on false heat, and it was very well said.
Oh, nice. Yeah. She's yeah.
And I'd love to meet her one day.
Oh, I'm sure you will. I'm sure you will. No time at all.
So what was the question about who?
Oh, Angie's question. She was asking about, I see I'll just read it in her words. I see Caroline's website, that her school offers both correspondence courses and classroom courses. How does she value both types of education? Does she think one is better than the other? Can you learn as much through correspondence as you can through live courses, especially for things like energetics, which can be maybe confusing to people?
So that's what she would like to know.
Well, I don't think energetic is hard to learn because, like, it's there. Mhmm. You just have to have somebody, like, help you notice it. But it it was a big thing because I never thought to teach correspondence class, but we had, you know, students come from Switzerland and had to immigrate for, like, four years to to do the class and then have people in France because it's what we teach is I think that no. No. I think we're the only French school who teaches it that way.
And, and so we have, like, demands from France and Belgium and Morocco and Algeria.
So we decided this year, and and I'm filming it this summer, to do an online class, but it's filmed. So there's, video, there's audio PowerPoint, there's, like, an an Internet.
Like, it's a it's a big it's not just like you're you're receiving books and then you but also, like, when I I started to, you know, learn herbalism, I had, like, the great, amazing privilege to to be in an apprenticeship, which is, like, the best thing, I think, best way to learn. And then you can find maybe, like, knowledge, some and but I've read so much. Like, the rest of my knowledge came came from books. Mhmm. So I'm I'm, you know, my life changed from reading some books.
So I think I think learning can come from so many other ways. And I think the most learning that I got was through sitting with plants and my dreaming. So, you know, what's the best way to learn? I don't know.
I don't know. It depends on who you are and your needs and, like, I'm a pretty good self taught person. Like, I I was like that as a child. So but I know some of my students really needed me to be with them, sitting with them.
And I guess those students were the ones that thought that they could not learn, and so they had to sort of reprogram themselves to think that they were intelligent and that they could learn.
And that, I think, needs, it's like having a therapeutic teacher is helpful.
But, there's so many ways to learn. I don't know. I'm hoping it's like a wager. I don't know if if my online class will work out or if people will get something out of it. I really hope so. I think they would.
But You know you know, you might consider and, I'm just just saying off the cuff here, because I've seen other folks do.
I I haven't done this myself yet on on learning herbs on any of our courses, but maybe I will in the future.
But I always kind of have told herbalists like yourself or do, like, have a kind of correspondence or home study course is that, you know, you could sometimes, like, you know, package it with, like, hey, you know, you get this course and then, you know, maybe once a year you do it or twice a year you have a a weekend where people can come to school.
Like, I'm that that that will be there for sure.
Oh, great. Great.
But I mean, people from Algeria might not come to Quebec, you know. Right. Right.
Right. Right. Right.
So how how I'm not, you know, people around Quebec or North America, it's easy for them to come.
Right.
Just thinking people overseas or, you know, people who have, like, three kids and Oh, so you'd be surprised.
You'd be surprised. I go to I go to, you know, I've been going to classes that, you know, I've done on on home study classes for various topics online that that concluded that. And I've gone and then to their live events and then there have been people from all around the world. Depends on how bad someone wants to be.
Yeah. And I'd be really glad if there's enough, you know, students from France. I'd love to go for a week. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. That'd be yeah. Fine.
But but we're not doing any any, English correspondence class because I think there's really a lot of great schools, and I don't see the need for me to do one, you know.
So But you do have a quite unique perspective though. I mean, that's, you know, you have a very very unique perspective on Yeah.
But I could I could just, you know, when I taught in Vermont, I talked to herbalists who and some of them were practicing.
And, and, because I think herbalists are like the most learned people and the last, like, they like most people learn herbalism but don't practice it. Mhmm. It's quite sad because it's it's really such a gift for the whole world.
That's right.
And we need it. We need those people and that knowledge to be used. So just go out there.
Get out there and practice.
Give those herbs to people. And and you have And you have Sorry?
I was gonna say you have a clinic at your place too. Right?
Yeah. Yeah. We have a school clinic and and, yeah, sometimes it's bilingual too. So Okay. Because, you know, Montreal's our English people. But what I what I what I was thinking was more like what I'm teaching in in, in the US or in the English part of, you know, herbalism is is the little parts that that I think that I can add some perspective on energetics, the lymphatic system that I that I've been obsessed with for the past eighteen years and and, you know, my discoveries and then that can add up to what they already know.
And, and just and what I taught really was how to help them access their and and get confidence with themselves as a healing tool and then and then be open and, you know, loving and easy with oneself when you're accompanying somebody else. And so when you're like creating a holy open space where, you know, magic happens and it's, it's it's less work. Mhmm. But not less work, but it's less harsh, you know.
Yeah. Well, well, the good news is for folks who are listening in the US, you can see Caroline, Jim McDonald's. That's July twenty seventh to the twenty ninth two thousand twelve, and that's herb craft dot o r g slash c a r o to go see, about the information. Can you tell us, Caroline, about your Vermont classes?
Yeah. I'm I have one scheduled exactly on that focusing and energetics.
It's in September, I think. Let me figure out my antenna. It's the eighth and ninth of September.
Okay.
And, I don't have all the info yet on my website, but it's at flora medicna dot com. And, you know, people can just send us an email if they want info on what's happening in the U. S. Or conferences that I'll be giving elsewhere and, and then we'll get back to them. We'll have, like, an email list for the English speaking classes.
Some Midwesterners, East Coast, there's no problem. Go go on and go on to the classes. Now now might you, by any chance, be at the international earth symposium in two thousand thirteen maybe?
I don't know.
I don't know if they haven't done this yet.
So they probably got there.
I I was at the last time.
That's why I asked because I remember your name and I couldn't make it, last time.
But I will be there next year.
Because I was asking too because, oh, we can we'll meet then.
I'm definitely gonna be there, but I don't know if, if, Rosemary has set me up for conferences.
But I'm Oh, we will hang out.
At her place in in October. So I'll figure that out.
We can, we'll definitely get to hang out in any case then.
So What?
We'll definitely get to meet and hang out in any case.
Yeah. It's up to. Meet in real person.
Next June. A year from now, actually. So, no problem. You know, I I could I could sit here and listen to your accent all day, but I think that, we probably have to get going. So so, Caroline Guernon, merci. And, and David.
And, once again, floramedicine.com. And if you're on our adventure, I'll just have that link right there. You can click right there and open it and explore the site.
Once again, thank you very much and and, hope to That was a pleasure, John.
Yeah. Thank you.
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