From HerbMentor.com, this is Herb Mentor Radio.
You are listening to Herb Mentor Radio on HerbMentor.com. I'm Rosalee de la Forêt. My guest today is John Gallagher, who is normally the regular host of Herb Mentor Radio. Many of the HerbMentor.com members wanted to hear an interview with John for HerbMentor.com’s fifth anniversary. So it's my pleasure to interview John and I hope today's interview gives you a glimpse of the man who's already contributed so much to the herbal community.
I consider John as my chosen family and I also highly respect him and the work we do together for learning herbs dot com. Plus, he's been a mentor to me over the years, and I certainly wouldn't be where I am today without him.
John's an herbalist and a licensed five element acupuncturist.
He's the father of two awesome kids and husband to his beautiful, intelligent, and very creative wife, Kimberly.
For over twenty years, John worked at the Wilderness Awareness School where he helped create the Kamanah Naturalist Training Program. This home study program is about reconnecting people with nature and has reached tens of thousands of people worldwide.
John is also a musician, a theater nerd, and has been a computer geek for most of his life. John founded his company, learning herbs dot com, in two thousand five, and began by selling his herbal medicine making kit. Seven years later, he and his wife have created a cooperative board game for kids called Wildcraft.
Also Herb Fairies, a magical tale of herbs and their remedies. And, of course, the innovative membership site, herbmentor dot com. So, John, it's a pleasure to interview to you today. And I think the first thing that I and everyone else is wondering is when exactly is it that you sleep?
Well, first of all, never let anyone word of advice to everyone, never let anyone else write your introduction.
That was great, that was great, thank you. Kimberly actually said that she would listen to this one. It'll be the maybe the first Hermita radio in five years, It's it's at sixty episodes that she'll actually listen to. That's because she said you're doing it. Yeah.
I hope she likes introduction then.
Well, how I when when I sleep that that well, I I I sleep pretty well these days because I have great people working with me. You, Rosalie, and Althea in, customer service, and Debbie, and Savannah, and, you know, it's it's a it's, Julie and Kimberly, of course. It's a great team of folks, and, I you know, that's how we're able to do more and more is because we have great people working with us.
Great. So yeah. Okay. You start off by complimenting everyone else, John.
Thank you. And and and and I have great nervines that, herbal tinctures that that I that I get at every, herbal resurgence conference that happens as well as Mountain Rose Herbs. And the last laundry day for Rosemary's Remedies, Aaron and Mountain Rose just sent me this box full of tinctures of of nervines. I have all kinds of them over there.
So that's another way I sleep at night.
Well, speaking of herbs, John, people are wondering, what got you interested in herbal medicine? How did you start on that path?
Yeah. You know, I think everyone listening can probably can say that the reason why they're interested in herbs, they they almost can't quite put their finger on it. It's something kind of mysterious that kind of is in all of us that's interested in learning about plants And I think it often is a matter of if a person has that opportunity to to awaken and nurture that internal thing that that draws them, the plants. Like for me when I was early on in in the early 90s started working with John Young, He's a world renowned tracker and bird language person and knows all this amazing wilderness skills. Well, he also knows a lot about plants.
And at the time, they'd all be into tracking and doing all this stuff, building wilderness shelters and fires and stuff. I was always wanting to learn more about the herbs.
So the field guides that I, would always get the plant field guides and I'd be they'd all be looking at the tracks and I'd be looking looking at the plants and identifying them over in New Jersey. That's what and and then, and then so I knew I was interested. And I don't know what to how what to do with that information, though, because the way that those Peterson's field guides were arranged in a lot of the books at the time where it's like, oh, as if this was something Native Americans once did that people didn't actually do because there weren't a whole lot of books out.
So I, and you know kind of fast forward a few years and in came opportunities to actually, learn like what to do with these plants that, you know, like, ways of using them in my life that that were fascinating to me. And I think that that was really awoken in me when when I knew I had a child coming because, I knew enough not to trust, you know, just well, I don't wanna say trust modern medicine because there's a lot of great things about it, but it's more just, you know, I just knew that, you know whether from from childbirth to taking care of a kid and your basic stuff that there had to be natural ways of doing things that were just better than you know, taking chemical things or going to the you know, just do subjecting kids to all these tests and this and that that I could take care of them naturally and for your basic day to day stuff.
And that that began that investigation and then it kind of manifested you know, I happen to be in the northwest here where we moved wilderness awareness school in nineteen ninety five and very lucky to run across some amazing herbal teachers and mentors up this way, which I took classes from and apprenticeships and and all kinds of workshops and whatnot. Like Eaglesong and Sally King from Ravencroft, Karen Sherwood, the Earthwalk Northwest, and Aaron Grow, who teaches up, North Washington Way.
Yeah.
Nice. And, you know, I know that this is kind of the cliche question to ask herbalists what's what's their favorite herb, but this is I kinda like this question. There's a little bit of a twist on it. Is there an herb that you tend to use most often? Is there something, you know, that's just a part of your daily life or what what's in your life?
Yeah. I I, you know, I I was just thinking, well, my favorite herb is a dandelion. And I and and it's in the logo of learning herbs and I just realized, yeah, I guess I do use it every day because I do take a nourishing herbal infusion every day and and I I have a blend that I use, and it's nettles and and dandelions, burdock, and oatstraw.
And and so the you know? And these are all these are nourishing herbal infusions that we talk about over on Herd Mentor, and you can, you know, read more about that there. But, but the dandelion, you know, made a part of the logo learning herbs and and and and it just I've always been drawn to this plant ever since the very beginning because I think it was one of the very first medicinal plants I learned. It's a good story actually.
I so you just never know where your path's gonna go. I remember I was working a summer job. I don't know. I must have been eighteen, nineteen, or twenty or something.
I don't know. I think I was, like, nineteen or twenty. And it was with my friend George, and we were out working in this farm and and in New Jersey, and and, we had to spray, the the weeds in the driveway. So we were there spraying this stuff, these weeds.
And, my friend George says, you know, John, you can eat that. And I was like, what? What do you mean you can eat that? Yeah.
It's like one of the highest sources of vitamin a. I'm like, it is? Why why are we poisoning this? I remember the first thing, But then I kind of forgot that and then it kind of like but it was the first moment that kind of made a little crack in the sidewalk, you know, if you will, and that's actually how dandelions kind of come up.
And And the funny thing is that my friend, George, is what is in the wilderness awareness club and when it was started in my high school in nineteen eighty five or something like that and and that was pretty amazing because, you know, like he was in that club that I eventually worked for that school and was drawn to that like at a later date, But I was like, wow. Like, you know, that that so that that that made that impact. So when I eventually was, you know, working wilderness awareness years later, I I think the damil line was kind of my introductory herb.
It definitely grew through the crack in my brain, Lots of cracks in my brain.
And, and, and that's because, you know, I I guess, like, I grew up in I grew up in this upper middle class town in New Jersey, and, pretty much everyone in that neighborhood, you know, two story suburban houses, all, all got Kim Lawn. You see the Kim Lawn trucks going around and they'd spray and I always used to wonder why the Kim Lawn trucks, why they have little flags they say, you know, get a warning, kids and dogs don't play on the lawn. You know, it'd be like, you know, and I'd go out there and play on the lawn anyway. You know, okay. That's like a little flag's not gonna stop a kid. But But then when I became more aware of this stuff when I was older, I realized, wow. You know, all the songbirds or reptiles that I that I caught and played with when I was little, the amphibians that were very rich in the woods behind my house were all gone.
And, and and so and it was all because people just wanted these perfect looking lawns.
And, and Dandelion was kind of like, you know, the the and in Public Enemy number one of that kind of it still is, Roundup, you know, you see it's still on the cover of Roundup and all those. Right? Mhmm. And, and so for me, you know, healing the earth and and and, you know, having a healthier earth for the future generations, dandelion became a very important symbol for that.
And then not only that, I mean, it's an amazing plant. I mean, I could go on and on, but, you know, you know not just from its you know vitamins and minerals and health properties but also it's a survivor, you know, I mean it's one of the most advanced plants on the planet, it's gotten itself all over the place, you know, like it's a survivor and it can grow in all conditions and, you know, it adapts itself instantaneously in any situation. So there there's many many metaphorical things you can use in a dandelion. It's just like the perfect plant and, and, yeah, I've always been fascinated by that.
So yeah. And so and because of that and because of his nutrition, I I, always make sure I have some every day in in my infusion, and that's the truth. I don't know. So I can't think of a day in the last many, many years where I haven't.
So you went from being a kid spraying Roundup or chemicals on everything to becoming infatuated with plants to using herbs for your family. And then Mhmm. Years later, you created an herbal kit, which has been wildly successful. I'd love to hear how you started, you know, how you came up with that idea and how it started. And I I just know since I know your family, it was really a family affair.
I think it'd be fun to share, you know, how those kits actually got How that actually happened?
Well, you know, when we were talk I was talking about before about how I kind of, you know, manifest herbal learning opportunities in my way, and I remember when we had, we knew we had a baby maybe, come in or maybe we're I don't yeah. It's hard to remember exactly what would the timeline of things, but Kimberly and I went to the Northwest Herb Fest. Actually, it's where you and I well, pretty much is where you and I really met is at a later year of that fair, right, at that festival. That's right.
But but in an earlier version of that, I I was up there and I was looking for a kit that would just give me everything I needed to learn. I was just just like, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what to buy. I don't know.
Like, I just don't I don't really wanna do this, but I don't and so but no. Everyone in the little booths would say, hey, that's a great idea.
I've never seen that. And I said, And luckily, I found Aaron Grow, my my first teacher there, which was awesome. But I guess somewhere that kid stuck in the back of my mind.
You know, and then years later, when I had taken herbal apprenticeships and I had been teaching at Wilderness Awareness Schools it's like their college program, now called the Inake School, I think, and, I was teaching their herbal program so I had years under my belt of actually communicating this information to other people. Now the other thing people may not realize about me is that I had, like, fifteen years experience in distance learning. Created, as you said, I created a kamana program and that had thousands of people worldwide. I developed systems and worked with people every week on the phone, you know, and responses writing and you know, all kinds of stuff and putting together home study.
And so I got really good at that kind of stuff and and and my tech skills too from as a result of of of working in wilderness to winter school because that's kind of what I did there, you know, their marketing and their tech stuff and all that sort of thing. I mean, I I was just kinda blessed with those skills, and I had such a passion for what orders were in school and that that whole mission and everything that, that it was a way I could help, you know. I mean, I think we all, like, you know, have skills and then if there's a cause, you know, that we love, if there's a way to help, it's it's great, it's a great thing, you know, so I was able to do that with Wilderness Awareness School.
So I had all those skills and, knew about distance learning, had been teaching about herbs, I've been using them for maybe at that point maybe, I don't know, five, six years with my family and and and then it it hit me one day, you know, I was just like, you know, I can, you know, I I might be able to put something together for herbs with with with this with with these skills. And and and I knew that, the books are are a block for people, like, you know, like like, like some people buy the book and then not feel a confidence in order to, you know, like, in order to actually get to it, be like, oh, look.
This is, instructions in a salvin but, you know, I don't I don't feel like I I can trust this because it's it's involving my health and something I'm putting in my body.
So I just was like, alright, we just had to put something together. I want to put something together. It's just gonna tell folks, you know, just like hands on that there's two things to do and you're you're gonna walk away that day having done it and feel that confidence and know that it's safe and know that you've done it and feel like because once you have that that that positive experience and you've made something, then it's real easy to access the books because then they go back to the books that they bought and go, oh, this wasn't so hard. Maybe I'll do this.
So, so then, you know, I put that together, put the website together, and then it became a family affair when, we were living in a little tiny one bedroom apartment and Haley was just born and and I remember going I mean, I I mean it's a funny story. I didn't have any, you know, money. We were on, like, you know, it's it's it's a lot for me to mention, but, you know, we were, like, definitely on public assistance at the time, food stamps and food bank and that kind of stuff and living in a little one bedroom apartment. Part of that was because I was going to acupuncture school, working at a nonprofit, you know, and I really kind of needed that help And, so I I just kinda put it on my credit card, you know.
My dad helped a little bit with a little small loan, and and I bought all the supplies for the kit. And we we were in this tiny postage stamp one bedroom apartment with the two kids and and everything, and and we would store we would maybe buy supplies for fifty kits at a time and we'd store them all under the table, you know, all the so we'd be eating dinner at night and all the kids supplies for the entire business were under the kitchen table, this little apartment, we had no closets, we had no space or anything, so we put them in the corners, anything we could do And, and, yeah, so, you know, we get the the baby we get Hailey to sleep, we get Rowan to sleep or whatever.
And at night, we would, you know, when it was kit night, we would Kimberly and I would kinda set it all up in the little living room there and make a little assembly line and package all the original kids.
So, yeah. So it was a family affair from the time in January I think it was January first, two thousand five that we opened the door. So, yeah, that's how it started as a family affair anyway.
Yeah. I remember, about the time I met you, Rowan was also participating. I can't remember.
Maybe he was opening up the jars or, you know, he had to open up a little task that he was a part of too.
Screwing the screwing the lids on the jars. That's correct. Yeah.
Yeah. That's great, John. It's, it's really interesting just to hear that story because it's, you know, it's easy, I think, for people to look at your success now and be overwhelmed by it, you know, in some sense. But, you know, you start out with very humble beginnings. You just had an idea.
We didn't even, I didn't even own a computer or or I couldn't even afford Internet access. I actually borrowed a computer from older stores, go into the laptop, somebody, like, an old laptop somebody donated. I'd go get it at night, you know. I'd drive down while kids were asleep, and I would I would drive down at eight or nine at night.
I'd pick up the laptop out of the office. I'd kinda sneak it out, and then I drive a little further down the street to the, or or actually actually, at the time, yeah, the office was in town. So then I would go grab the and then I would kind of sit outside my car outside the library. It had had Wi Fi, you know, it was the earliest days of Wi Fi and, I just adopted it and so I was able to, like, borrow their Internet access.
Yeah. So, you know, you don't you you gotta do what it takes. You know what I mean?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You absolutely did too. Driven is one word I would definitely use.
I've always had a job. Ever since I was nine years old, I worked.
So that's the kits. And, likewise, someone had asked on the forums, you know, people had some questions for you. And someone had asked about the Wildcraft game and how, you know, that was created.
Oh, yeah.
Well, Kimberly was taking these classes in Seattle, in in, like, maybe two days a week or something. So it was it was, I think I'm trying to track here exactly if that was before. So I think she was pregnant with Haley at the time, I think, or something like that. Haley definitely wasn't around yet.
So, we we would play board games. He was, like, four or something. And and and, you know, those environmental kinda eco, hippie, cooperative games that are out there. You have the boring ones.
You have the boring ones. He never wanted to play those. He kept going to shoots and letters. He kept bringing out candy liners and letters, and then I kinda immediately had that idea, like, what if we combine the two?
Like, have a kind of a fun eco plant game along with, you know, with the with the kind of fun parts of the Chutes and Letters and stuff. And and so I had that came in. It's funny, like, the day I had it, I immediately came with that idea and then a wild craft, like, almost immediately. And and and so Rowan and I sketched, took some crayons and you can see a picture, where is it?
It's somewhere online. I have a picture of the original WildCraft board. I used to have it on on the on the anyway. So we and so it was like this little piece of cardboard and we would play it and we didn't really have any rules or anything, it was just kind of going around the board and shooting some letters type of stuff and then it was like after we moved into the house we're in now later like a year later or something, Kimberly said, hey.
I really like that board game idea. I think I wanna do that because, I mean, the ironic part is I'm not much of a game person. I don't really like playing games that much or card games or board games. I never did when I I was a kid, I liked sometimes, but but but Kimberly and her family were big gamers, you know.
They're rolling into that stuff and and Kimberly is a storyteller and she's got that kind of well read, you know, and fantasy stuff and whatnot and so she's got that that whole side of her.
So she wanted to adopt that project and she did, and to be honest with you, except for the name of the game and the idea of a board game, I didn't do anything. I mean literally like she she created the whole way it worked, and then our artist Fred Beatriz, happened to be coming back in the area for a short like, just for four or five months. Perfect timing. She did the art.
And then I came back in the scene, at the very end and did the, you know, the layout and stuff. But I didn't make any of the artwork. I just laid it all out on the computer, made it into a product, and then, of course, did all the marketing and put the web page and everything. But I kinda took it like, I I I did the beginning of the project and the end of the project.
And, folks, remember, he's already said Kimberly's probably gonna listen to this, so we're probably getting the honest truth from him.
Right. Right. Right. No. I mean, I've done it without her. She has I tell I've talked to Kimberly.
She's made all the cool stuff. You know?
It's true.
Yeah.
So we've, you know, we talked about herb the medicine making kit. We've talked about WildCraft. And, you know, we've just celebrated five year anniversary of Herb Mentor dot com. Congratulations.
Thank you.
We should probably talk about that too, you know, hear how that started.
Okay.
Well, I never know if I should tell the real story.
Yeah. I will I will tell the I will. No money. I'll tell the real story.
You know, the description of this will be like, and John tells the fake story of how John started.
Well, I mean, okay. You know, I'll tell the real story. It's a fifth anniversary. I mean, you know, I have nothing to hide here. Well, I mean, people remember me just saying, you know, it was it was a pretty tough we had a pretty tough go of it, early on. A lot of people do, you know, and and my dad, you know, but I've never wanna ask my dad for any help or money or anything, you know, but I I I just but but at some point, my dad, you know, helped us get this house that we're in, you know.
And, and he's sleep paying the mortgage for a couple of years too. And, he took he had visited, once, and and, my dad actually passed away this year. And so, and, so that's been really rough on us.
Of course, I mean, particularly, but, but, you know, I guess you y'all, you know, listen to have him to thank because, not only did he really, you know, believe in believe in me and made that initial, you know, small couple thousand dollar investment so I could buy kids supplies early on, but he also, kinda gave me the challenge. And he said, you know, John, a couple years is up, and I was gonna help with the mortgage. And and, you know, I I think I said I was gonna do that for a couple years, and I was like oh I don't remember that part.
It was a couple years later and and so you know when you have to do something, you have to do something and so I said, well, you know, I've got to figure out how to make my mortgage.
So I'm just being honest with y'all, you know, I'm just saying.
Yeah.
I've never heard you tell this story to anyone else before, John, so this Yeah.
Yeah. So, so I can't believe I'm saying this, but no. Really. But I think there's you know I mean this is real and I think everyone maybe finds themselves in these situations and and I had to think creatively and that's something I'm really good at, you know, think creatively and I said well you know I'm doing learning herbs and I was like how can I get a couple thousand more dollars a month you know like in doing this and how how can I make the business?
Because because it was making a few extra dollars to decide I was starting an acupuncture practice. I was gonna be, did I started then. Yeah. I think it was just kinda getting going maybe earlier on and I was still doing you know, all things are pretty rough and I was trying to think of how to creatively do this.
And so, to make a long story short, I was, you know, talking with some people who are good at this Internet stuff, and they suggested a membership site because then I went, oh, like, because then, you know, if I did a monthly income, I would only need, like, a couple of hundred people, you know, to to pay maybe ten bucks a month or something, and then that would solve that that problem. And I was like, oh, yeah. Well, you know, that's that's that could work. And so that's what I did.
I I mean, I I went right to work and took me, like, six, seven months to get videos and and and audios together. I had Cheryl Tilner down in herbalist down in he ran a conference that used to happen in Oregon, but I said I could come down there and videotape a few things. That's where I met Heather. Just a village herbal did the village herbalist, and a lot of things came together.
Susan Weed was the featured person there and allowed me to videotape her for it. So the herbal community really started you know, the people that were there, you know, they're really gracious and generous, and, you know, they thought it was a cool idea. It'd be Tina Sams who was, you know, right from the beginning without, you know, helping with an article every month as she still does five years later.
It was just it was awesome people coming together for that and and and and and there was enough people in our free newsletter that we did online, the Nerdmentor News, which has gone monthly for eight years now without a beat, missing a beat. There were enough people subscribed to that that there was interest in it and right, you know, and then and then it worked. I was able to take care of the mortgage and then, but more than anything, it was the beginning of, you know, what was to become a more stable business that I could actually start to focus almost full time on at that point. Now it is for more than full time. And and, but I mean, by being able to do that, I could offer better stuff to people and I could be more present and I could, you know, like, put my all into it without, you know, dividing my energies anymore.
So, yeah, so that's that's kinda how I beat the Tumble Origins.
Yeah. And one thing you didn't mention, John, is that I pick you about, if I remember correctly, six months of solid work in order to get our mentor put together.
Yeah.
It was And before the doors were open.
Yeah. It was a lot. It was crazy. I mean, I just disappeared for six more months.
Yeah. Learning how to do videos and editing, and it was much more rougher tech then, you know, like, it's much easier now, but then it was much harder and figuring all that stuff out. I was like, oof. But I did it.
Yeah.
And I remember when you called me and, and told me that you just, you know, created this Herb Mentor and, you you know, and, you know, you invited me to check it out. And I remember seeing it for the first time and just thinking I was so wowed by it. It was so amazing. And I, you know, it was definitely from day one, I wasn't fell in love with it.
And it I like thinking about that because it makes you chuckle now to think of where Urban Inter is now. You know, we have thousands of pages of information that we didn't have five years ago and just everything's slicker. And but I just like to think about, you know, it was love at first sight five years ago and now it's just so amazing. It's mind boggling.
Well, that's what's great about all the members. You have a lot of members who are all contributing financially every month, and we can invest in it and make it better and better and better and have you there. I mean, you right from the beginning were right on there on the forum, and it didn't take too long to be like, hey. Rosalie's on there every day, and she's pretty obsessive about it. I think I think there should be I think we should hire her, you know.
God was love at first sight.
Well, John, you know, you've been sort of a business mentor to me over the years, and I've really learned a lot of great pearls of wisdom from you. And one thing that you've always told me is that a person's number one goal in business can't be to make money. You always say that that it would just never work. And, I'd love to hear you speak about that and maybe share, you know, what some of your goals and visions are for learning herbs.
That's really interesting to say to hear that reflected back at me because maybe, but, of course, like, in your business, I mean, in your course, you you know, in in the way our society is set up, of course, you gotta make, you know, money for it to work. Right? I mean, I mean, even nonprofits need money to survive or whatever. So it's a huge part of it, but, but then you gotta, like, step back and look at really what is money and and everything.
And and, you know, it's about trading. Right? Like, something that's of value to you, right, which is, like, you know, a person's harder. It's their it's your time.
It represents your time and putting your skills, and and that's not, you know, something to be taken granted for granted. And so what I have focused on is, value and, you know, creating tremendous value for people.
And that's why I like to give a lot of we give a lot of stuff away for free because it gets people to know who we are and even if they don't have any money to to exchange, then at least, you know, for HerbMentor or other things we do, at least we can help people, you know, which is excellent. I love that that, you know, you can do that on the Internet.
But, I mean, I always, like, go by the philosophy if someone's paying me some, I I love to give them ten times more of the value of what they're paying for, at least what I think. So that's kind of my rule of thumb. So if I think your mentor's worth a hundred dollars a month. Right? So I do, or at least.
So but I charge ten, you know, so I I give ten times more. And and, and so I think anything that we do, that we release is worth ten times more. You know, a lot of it, I think, is priceless too. Mhmm. So I focus on the value, and I and I think that if a person focuses on that and building good relationships and being generous and being kind to others.
I mean, you know, do the best you can. You can't please freaking everybody. Like, it's amazing. Like, I'm always amazed with like, we just do, like, a big wild craft sale, you know, and we give, like, almost fifty percent off.
And then, like, it costs us, like, thirteen or fourteen dollars to ship. You know? It's expensive to do shipping and handling and stuff. You know? And we charge, like, nine ninety nine, and then we'll get, like, complaint emails. You're charging me nine ninety nine. It's like, it cost me thirteen.
And it's just like, I do my best, man. So you can't please everybody, you know, and and and and some people will be people who look on their mentor, they'll be on there for a day, and then they'll email me, I don't like this site. I'm like I'm like, really?
But, but I don't focus too much on that. I I really I'd ignore that. You know, I don't ignore. I mean, if there's something if there's something chronic that there's a problem, I definitely hear that.
But they're gonna you're gonna have somebody every once in a while who's not gonna be happy about something. But I feel like if I am just sticking to that, doing the best I can, being generous, providing value, being cool, that, you know, it's you can sleep at night and you're providing a tremendous service for the world. I worked at wilderness and we're in school for about fifteen, sixteen years, something like that, I don't know at this point, and and, and it was all about, like, being of service and I kinda got in nonprofit mindset, of I mean, not that, you know, the poverty mindset that often a lot of nonprofit people kinda come, into when they work at those, but more of the the more of the mindset of being of service and helping.
And, so I can't help but do that. You know, it's just in my DNA. And then the differences though is that we're able to run a for profit, which really the only difference is that one one pays taxes and on some stuff and the other doesn't.
Really, I mean, a nonprofit is, you know, we're still service driven. And, you know, and at this point, I'm able to provide some some jobs for people and I hope that continues to grow so I could help to provide some jobs for, you know, for even more people. That would be great.
That's a great segue into my next question for you, John.
You know, from day one, you've said that, herbmentor dot com was never meant to compete with other herbalists or compete with herbal programs, that that really wasn't our goal or objective.
But instead that you really wanted to grow the herbal community, and I'd like to hear you speak some about that.
Yeah. You forget about that, John? No.
Well, you know, it's kinda funny. I I I'm I'm hey. This is all I this is, you know, all all this is this is John's secret confessions, this, email. I mean, sorry. This this podcast.
This email is so so, and and and my my confession probably here is that is that I just kinda do stuff the the way I feel it should be done and I just kind of intuitively do stuff and then I often then will do it and then I look back and go, oh, that was smart.
You know, and, and, I I think at Wilderness Awareness School part of my my job there was a lot was was was, you know, making allies with a lot of schools in the community out there and trying to grow nature awareness and wilderness skills and and and, you know, love for the love for the planet and and teaching children about these this stuff and instilling that respect, you know, and all that kind of stuff.
And so that's kinda in me. And so and the other thing is I I don't maybe the reason I never really like games too much is I don't have like a competitive bone in my body. Like if I'm playing basketball with someone and I'm and and and I'm winning, I'll I'll just rig the game so they win so they feel better if that's if that's if they're competitive people because I could care less, you know, about that kind of stuff. I'm just just like, that's just not important to me. So so, I I I, I think in doing this, I kind of intuitively came to the point where, like, you know, I want people to really, experience, oh, you know, about a lot of to learn about a lot of different herbalists and schools and things that are out there. You know, I was doing started this podcast or Mentor Radio, you know, probably doing over sixty more episodes.
And so people could get to know who's out there and learn from all these great mentors that are out there. And I just think by just, you know, spreading more information about what's out there, then people can kind of connect with those who they most ally with or most resonate with, they can learn from.
And I think the learning herbs kind of slowly, you know, working with herbalist and and and, you know, and a lot of people don't know this too, like when when herbalists like you have a might have a lot of books on your shelf, but people don't make a lot of money, you don't make much of a living from books, you know, they they they make maybe some money when they go out teaching and run classes and things like that. So then I do these, you know, ones like Rosemary's Remedies and and one with Kiva, one with K. P. Colson and and coming up with Sevensong.
And and I try and, like, say, how can we do a publishing model that kind of helps herbalists more? You know, definitely more than than than books do. You know, like, they can help. Of course, I wish I could do that for everybody, but I can't.
You know, I'm only one you know, it's like a small company. So there's that. You know, I wanna help and also, you know, sponsoring more, of these, conferences and festivals, herbal festivals out there and, you know, helping folks that are in herbal apprenticeships and and things like that maybe by giving her venture memberships, things like that. Like, anything we can do to kinda reach out and and help, and and it just brings people more together and and brings us so because, like, you know, if if people have a vision of of having an herbalist on on every street quarter like they probably do in Eugene, Oregon or some places in Vermont, then then you know we all have to learn this this information and we and we have to teach it to others and inspire others.
The only way to do that is by connecting people up with as many people as possible because I you know what I live in a place where there might be some teachers and you know and some not everyone does, I learned that in Kamantha that most people are kinda out there on their own, you know, not even their family understands this stuff or what they're doing and they could think they're weird.
So and and and so being there for them too. So in Herb Mentor, it's when I, you know, called Herb Mentor, it's people would be like, well, I'm not getting any direct mentoring. It's like, well, it's not about a one on one mentoring, you know, it's about community mentoring, it's about like, you know, getting some mentoring from some of their Herb Mentor Radio guests or people that might teach the courses.
It's about, and people mentoring each other. But I said from the beginning too, like, I mean, it's it's about the plants mentoring us too because that's when we learn when we work directly with the plants because it's a thing between you and the plants.
And I know I'm going all over the place here but that's kind of what it is, it is very messy and all over the place like I can't quite put my finger on it, I've been all over the place and I just kind of do what I do, you know, I just wake up in the morning and I do what I do with the best intention that I have and I, you know, I'd look at what I have to do that day, I look at what opportunities there are, I mean I'm very blessed that I have so many opportunities more than I can possibly handle and ideas more than I've, you know, so much many ideas and opportunities that I have to kind of be more unfortunately, more and more discerning, you know, begin and and and and focus on the ones I think are gonna make maybe the biggest impact on people.
Because, you know, and and and unfortunately, like, I you know, it even takes me away from the forum. Like, I used to be on the Urban Center forum a lot, and thank thank goodness you're there, Rosalie, on there. And I I feel really bad that I can't check-in on it every day and participate as an herbalist on there. I'd love to.
You gotta understand that. It's just that these things come out. I had to make that decision. It's like, do I, you know, keep learning more and more and more about herbs and then just answering questions and stuff just as, you know, to people who join HerbMeter or do I look at, you know, the greater picture out there and and use the skills that I have and the gifts that I have and these talents that I they've been given to make the biggest impact that I can.
And so then I, you know, that I often I kinda want out. So, you know, here we are working on our fairies. Here we are working on, you know, which I hope is a big in the future, a big thing for kids. And and, you know, like, working with with with with the Rosemary Gladstar and, and with Sevensong coming up and other folks that, you know, down the pike.
And and so I it's it's I'm so happy to be able to do that. So it's it's it's never perfect, though. You know? Like I said, it's real messy, but I I do the best I can.
But it all really does come back to the what you were just started the question with, Rosalie, is that I guess really I guess what it does is that, the effect of all of this is has been, you know, bringing bringing folks together and and and not trying to create dividing lines. I I kinda learned that early on. I I guess from John Young, you know, at wilderness awareness school. He's he's a really good mentor and all that.
He's really good at bringing people together and not, you know, having that kind of cutthroat competitive thing that realized that it really is about the vision about and it's not about us as individuals, you know, and and so I make a lot of business decisions that any other business owner would be completely counterintuitive, like, all the time, like, you know, like, from from the amount I'll pay someone to the amount I'll, you know, what what I'll do for different people or or how I'll set things up or there's so many examples I could give, but, that just don't seem to make sense. But I'll do that anyway because that's the kind of person I am.
I don't care. Like, I'm gonna do what I think, you know, how I think it should be done. I mean, that's why I'm unemployable.
You know? Like, I I mean, Wilderness Awareness School, I had to leave there when it became more bureaucratic nonprofit. I'm glad that it is because that means it matured. But I I was there because it was the wild west.
You know, I like starting things. I like I like moving things and shifting things and changing things to depending on what needs to be done. And I'm usually right, I think, you know, my my my intuitions. I I mean, I I kinda got more bold in that after reading Steve Jobs' biography, but the difference is that you don't have to be a jerk like Steve Jobs.
You can be really cool you can be really cool and and be a visionary and do cool stuff and and be counterintuitive.
And and and, and so I learned a lot of that kind of skills from John Young. It's always kind of been like that too.
And, and it seems to work, like, when I do that stuff, it always seems to the more the more I put myself out there, you know, in a good way, the more it seems to come back and, you know, many fold over and then, you know, it doesn't really work against me. I don't know. I don't do the right thing all the time, but I, you know, do my best.
Mhmm. Absolutely.
I was kinda meandering. Sorry about that.
You know, just listening to this.
We we we have no time limits. We have no time limits here. It's our show.
What was close then?
I said, but we have no time limits here. It's our show.
I can ramble on as long as I can.
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
If you're bored, just turn it off. I don't care. Straight.
So you've gone from assembling herbal kits, in your living room after the kids have gone to sleep and stashing them in every little corner you can find them to, you know, in my humble opinion, being one of the most successful and innovative, companies out there in the herbal world. And I'm wondering if you can share. I'm gonna you've kind of shared some of this already, but I'm just gonna ask you point blank if you could name maybe three main pillars of, you know, what has made you so successful.
And, I'm just gonna say upfront, you know, no no pressure to mention me, John. That's fine.
Yeah. Well, Rosalie is the first one.
And she's she's buttered me out. Do do you want a Christmas bonus or something?
No. No.
Well, I don't know. Well, first of all, that that word success, like, what is that? You know? Like, what does that mean?
You know, it's like, okay, paying the bills or is it mean, like, you know, we're getting the information out there. People are like, it's yeah. I know that's what you mean and and and and and so, yeah, we're paying the company is paying its bills, that's great and but the success is for me is is when I, you know, and I read them, you know, like when people leave a feedback after they buy a kid or gamer, people leave a, what do you call it, a little guest book we have and people can leave comments, I read all those. You know, and I I have to always keep my pulse on it.
And even though I have Althea do customer service and this and that, I really do my best to keep my pulse on things even though I'm not just saying that because I'm an acupuncturist.
But, so and I think that if you're gonna look at that as the measure of success is people just, you know, digging what we're doing and and and getting into it and also actually using the material and having success themselves, that's really the measure. Right? When I hear the feedback, like, wow, this changed my life. I'm doing this.
I mean, I just that's what I love, you know, just hearing, like, people, like, and what the impact and the we're making. And because for me, you know, this this company is not about, what we're doing here. Yeah. It's not it's funny.
It's not it's not about health it's not about health care to me. It's not really about that. It's it's about it's definitely about nature connection, you know, but I think more than anything it's about transformation.
Whether it's whether you're experienced herbal person coming in and learning a little something or whether you're brand new, I think you're people like, I just I just love providing some sort of transformation for somebody, like, you know, their life was a little was better today than it was yesterday, you know, that and because they, you know, connected to something that's very real, you know, nature, you know.
And so, maybe that's the measure for me of success is the reports of transformation, maybe, you know, that I know at least I'm doing. It keeps me grounded too, you know, than in touch, you know.
So, well, I guess a pillar, some pillars, I don't know, I had an hour to three, but I said I talked about creating value. That's certainly one, and generosity and, you know, the connection, the nature connection, the mentoring, focusing on focusing on kids, I think, has been a big thing, a pillar of what we do too.
I don't know. It's it's it's tough even with the pillars. Like, what what is it that that that holds it up?
And and maybe may maybe that's it. It's it's it's, you know, staying staying humble and focused and on on really what's important, providing the value, that second one and, yeah, like no.
Is that kinda, Absolutely.
That was a great answer, John.
You know, like, I I think that's the direction that we're going in and just maybe just being being cool.
Being cool. You know, and maybe well well, you know what? I don't have to sit around in some corporate boardroom or I don't have sit around with a bunch of people that, you know, are trying to, you know, look good to each other and trying to keep their jobs and what now, you know, we're sitting around trying to come up with, you know, what's our mission statement, what are our brand, you know, whatever, you know, I don't have to we don't have to play those games, you know, like we could just look at what we wanna do and just go and do it, you know, and and that's the place I love, the creative place. Well, of course, creativity probably is is a big pillar because that is huge to me.
And, but yeah. So we can kind of just, you know, and Rosalie, I mean, so be you know, people listening too. I mean, Rosalie all the time is like, she's on Facebook in in in on the forum and always, like, coming back with great ideas for courses or things to do in Herb Mentor based on what she's hearing people out there talking about.
And and and I guess, you know, in other words, communication and listening because, you know, because at this point, I don't know, Rosalie, we're kinda like sometimes it feels like we're we're we're one unit working again. Like, you're kind of out there gather gathering the intel and bringing it back and I go, okay. I can make that.
Yep.
Yeah. It is it is fun. You know, it's very, rewarding and fun to be in an environment that, you know, is just really supportive of creativity. Like, in some ways, that's kind of my job description is to be creative.
So It is.
And it is has there been, like, one single idea you've had in the last, you know, five years that I've, like, said no to?
No.
If if there's anything, we've just had to shelf some because there's too many.
Yeah. Yes.
Definitely more of the issue that we have for sure.
Yeah. Exactly.
Oh, speaking of, you know, things on the shelf and looking forward, do you have any, visions or aspirations for learning herbs in, let's say, the next ten years. You got a ten year plan up your sleeve, John?
Ten years. Wow.
Alright. I guess so, I guess I can reveal a few things because if anyone's listened this long, I'm I'm really appreciative of that and so I'll I'll give you some information.
Give him some juicy effort.
This means you actually truly do like me.
And, well, I know that I if if it was ten years from now, what would things be looking like and and what had just happened in those last years?
I, you know, for doubt a doubt, HerbMentor will still be, you know, there and thriving. You know, that HerbMentor is kinda ground zero for me. You know, that's, like, the most important thing. No matter what else we're doing, we always make sure that Herb Mentor is always taken care of.
I don't think even when Rosalie, when you and I when we move this site to a new platform, I mean, that I mean, I'm telling you, I'm a tech geek and I'm into this stuff and I've seen membership sites. We pulled up people don't even realize how freaking impossible that was but because we made it look easy, but we didn't miss a beat in content. We didn't miss a featured herb. We didn't miss an herb mentor radio all through that crazy transition and everything.
You know, so we are dedicated to Herb Mentor and and so that's that's that to us is like, you know, the heartbeat, you know? Mhmm.
Because but mind you that Herd Mentor is a small portion of the overall, like, I, you know, just use back lack of a better term, like, mailing list or customer list, you know, people who've got stuff from us or on our list or free list, very small percentage. You know, y'all are just like the the hardcore people, you know. So but I like to, to to have something available for other folks too. So, you know, I I can see Herb Fairies being much more developed into its own big department.
I mean, I love, you know, like natural toys and, you know, all kinds of, like, videos and, oh, you know, all kinds of stuff. I can see it being really cool. You know, like, I just can see a whole line of stuff. You know, I love the herb fairies, even more with wild craft, you know, not you know, some do doing more with the kids stuff is is a huge thing for me.
And, more of those great courses that we come out with, I just look keep producing those, you know, low costs, you know, like, topic focused things.
I have a good time putting those together.
You know, I probably have fifty years worth of project ideas, but, but let's see. We'll have Herb First Aid with Sevensong.
I'll tell you that's coming out in January.
No, February. Sorry.
And, Rosalie is working on something cool to get out there.
And, you know, we have some great ideas about things that connecting the herbal community more, some websites and more, apps. I really wanna do apps in in in digital publishing. I'd love to get into digital publishing more, like, people I'd love to do you know, paper would be great and all that stuff, but it's just so expensive and hard when you and, you know, it's just you kinda look at where we wanna put our resources. Maybe we'll do that.
I don't know. But I can definitely see trying to help more herbalists out at least by maybe publishing some, you know, help because a lot of herbalists out there are very tech savvy, you know, and so if we can take some of that away from them, give them a really big cut, you know, it's it's something you can do in the digital world, which you can't do in the print world. So it can be like, hey. Here's take fifty percent of the royalties, like, you know, instead of, like, instead of twenty five cents a book, you know, and and a small advance, how about how about fifty percent of the royal or more, you know, like maybe, I don't know, like that's the kind of like model that I'd like to do.
So love to get into digital publishing more. I can see doing a lot more of that. And another thing we're gonna be looking at is, in the next year and I'd like to see developed is, more kits and more introductory kit ideas and things.
Maybe we'll ask some of our mentor members for some ideas what they would think they would like to see if they were beginners, like, starting out. What would you like to see? You like the herbal medicine making Kipa a little simpler, maybe some topic focused stuff.
So it's you know, I'm very lucky. You know, I feel really thankful, to, powers that be out there that, you know, I was able to hit a stride with something that I love doing that I can also see doing for years to come. You know? I mean, eight eight years has flown by for learning herbs and I I feel like you probably feel this way too, Rosalie. I feel like, you know, the ideas we have, it's almost like the first day of work. You know, I feel like we have, you know, so much ahead of us that we haven't even started yet.
Just so everybody knows that I I reflect on that, you know, when we finished when I finished up, like, a column, like, the module two for learning or or learning your plants course.
I remember, you know, finishing that and being like, woah. Like, it's you know, I just finished this big thing, but then, you know, the next day, you know, it's time to start herbs and practice course or whatever. You know, it's just it is one thing after another. We finished something big, and then it's time to move on.
I I don't mean I live in May. I I think you did.
Collect.
Exactly. I think you do you do as hell, but I I live in a perpetual state of feeling like I'm just getting started.
Like, I never feel like I've accomplished anything.
We could have this like, oh, yeah. We gotta do this now, you know. We gotta move on to this.
And it's, yeah.
Yeah.
But looking behind you, John, I mean, I'll just say it for you. You know, you have accomplished so much in the past eight years. It's really you know, it's kinda one of those things when when I sit down to think about it, it's it's pretty amazing.
Thank you.
It's true. It is if I stop and and look at and and, you know, I guess the thing that that the biggest reflection I had that this year about that And and thing that the thing that's meant the most to me in my life, I think, was, you know, not not many people have the opportunity to be at the deathbed of their parents, you know, like, and, or have the opportunity to say the things you always wanted to say. Like, I have a friend whose whose whose, you know, dad died suddenly, you know. Mhmm.
And they often don't say the things that you wanna say, you know. And so if your parents are still alive or they're getting up there in years, please, have this conversation with them. And I but I was really lucky. And I was in the hospital, it was February last year, and, I was, there in the hospital, the cancer hospital.
And he he he I saw it a couple weeks, he hung on there. But it was it was literally the day that they kinda upped his morphine where he wouldn't really be, comprehend you know, you wouldn't really you you wouldn't be very comprehensive, you know, like, understandable after that. But he was had a lucid moment. I spent, like, the week staying over in the hospital that week and, you know, helping him out and moving him around and all that kind of stuff.
And and I was about to go and, you know, and he and he and he and he said, you know, sincerely, he just loved, like, of how proud he was of me. You know, like that he saw it. You know, he saw what we'd done because I'd always tell him, I'd always give him updates and and that way really meant more than anything to have that moment, you know, where that that last moment of him with him. So I just well, I kinda consider his last day even though he didn't physically die for a couple of weeks later.
But, you know, I kinda felt like that was his last day. And, when he said those things, like, you know, he hadn't you know, he sometimes would allude to it, but he just really said it fully and everything that I couldn't couldn't have meant more. And that's when it that's when it meant the most to me, you know. And I was like, wow.
That's that's awesome. So that that's what I carry with me, you know, that I carry his memory when I do my work too because, you know, he was and then my mom were very supportive. Like, I never had the parents that were just like, John, you can't do that. You can't do that.
You know? Or you what what are you doing with your life? You know? What are you going what are you gonna do?
Why don't you go get a real job kind of a thing? You know? And I worked all those years of school, you know, you're always supportive. They're always supportive.
They always just want you know?
And, I'm very lucky for that. I know not everyone has that opportunity. So, you know, it's taught me a lot how to be a parent of my kids too. You know?
Yeah.
Yeah. That's really a beautiful thing. Like you said, you've always done kind of alternative things and, you know, most people in our society aren't really accepting of herbalism and and being people being infatuated with the plants. So it's a really beautiful thing that he could see through that and just see, you know, the bigger picture of what you're doing and how successful you were in reaching people.
Because he's an old school Catholic from a blue collar town. Even though he was a white collar worker, he couldn't come from that background, you know, and he's very conservative Republican type of person. And I'm not getting political here, but I'm just getting painting a little bit of a picture that for him to kind of see through all that and then see the value in it and and also, you know, that was really cool. You know, he's he's definitely a very open minded person and and, and, and could see that. That was pretty rare. You know? So so yeah.
Yeah. John, I know you've had some really powerful, mentors and really inspirational people in your life, you know, from your dad to John Young, who you've mentioned, to Yngwie, even Bruce Springsteen, who I know, you really like. And Mhmm. I was hoping you'd maybe just choose one of those and tell us a little about your relationship with them and maybe how they've influenced your life.
Sure. Might be more than one though. I don't know. Yeah.
We've covered your dad.
Well So Well, actually, let's talk about Bruce.
Bruce.
Because I love talking about Bruce.
No, like, which is interesting. You know, when you kind of look back and you look at your influences and and and stuff and who were your mentors and who were the people to influence.
And and, you know, like, I have kids and and, you know, looking at Hailey who's eight. I mean, when I was eight, it was one the first time I heard Bruce Springsteen, you know, blasted out of my brother's room, and I'll never forget the song, you know, the song promised land was kinda nineteen seventy eight. It's coming out of out of his room and I I just had to hear it over and over. I would go in there and make my brother play the record over and over because he wouldn't let me touch the stereo.
And and, and here's the real ironic thing is that, now, at the time when he made that album and at that time, he lived literally in the same neighborhood as John Young.
No way.
So John Young is like this little kid. John Young tells this this this origin story about him and his mentor Tom Brown Junior and then in the neighborhood he grew up in. So he has this neighborhood in New Jersey where there's like Tom Brown Junior, right, and and and mentoring John Young as a teen, you know, like kind of the later years of him being mentored, you know, like by Tom.
And Bruce writing, you know, one of his most important albums and the next thing he rode over. It goes, John John's dog used to run over to Bruce's dog all the time, so we track him over to Bruce's house and stuff.
But all this has happened five miles from my house, and I didn't even know it. But, but, you know, he, he he has a real positive energy in his music and a real soul and and and and and and and and and a creativity that doesn't end. Like, he I think for that album, in darkness, the edge of town, he made, like, eighty or ninety songs for it and had to choose eight or nine or something for the album.
And so that was the kind of, you know, person that that was my hero growing up. You know? Like, I was definitely into baseball in nineteen seventeen, my dad took me to the World Series, you know, you know, went to one of those games.
But at the same time, I was way into music because of my brother and, so he was and he was a person who was a hero, a mentor, and I also got I knew so much about him because he was a local, you know, when he was writing this famous Born USA album, he just lived a mile from my house. He lived, you know, he used to see him sometimes driving back and buying his truck. And he, lives the house he lives in now is like half a mile from the house I grew up in, you know, so he's a real local so to me, I didn't understand that this was like this international rock star person or whatever. It was just this guy in the town who did this great music, you know, in my little eight or nine, ten year old world. You know, like, I didn't quite understand that.
Yeah. I never knew that.
Yeah. So so that that's why I kind of got in my psyche like that, you know. And so, and so, you know, there there's that kind of that integrity that he has and that positive energy and that creativity and that kind of, like, amazing, you know, stuff he puts into his live shows, but also, like, the structure creatively, like, just learning, like, like, take his album Born to Run in nineteen seventy five, and I wanna put him on the cover of Time and Newsweek in the same week. And, and, that that this I mean, I could get into it, but the structure of that album is very much how I structure my launches that I do. Like, I literally, like, research and really model a lot off of people that have been important to me like that.
And, and so, that, you know, it's kind of a whole another art, but, but that that's an example of, and then, you know, what was really cool for me is that like just last week, you know, I was, Dick Rowan, my thirteen year old son, can't believe he's thirteen or but we were just, went to two shows that, you know, he was up in the northwest, went to Vancouver, down to Portland, he wasn't playing Seattle And and, you know, I was able to have Rowan, you know, experience the same thing that I experienced, because I think he's playing better now than he ever has at sixty three years old, you know, and so here he is at, we were front row two times this year at a show in California too. And, and, and just to experience that right there, and he he gets it too, you know, which is really cool.
So, yeah. So then, of course, that that that as far as that kind of real essence kind of creative kind of stuff and then John Young, of course, the mentor and got so much, like, it's hard to get into. But but when it comes to content, you know, he's the stuff he's the person that got me in all this nature awareness stuff. And, when I saw him, I was in environmental stuff when I was in college, like environmental ed and, like, environmental groups and stuff like that. It was all activism based stuff in the late eighties, early nineties.
And then I met up with John and then had an experience there when I realized, wow, you know, it doesn't have to be about anger all the time. It could be about education and connection, and that's what the role magic is.
So that's what you know, that's the the world that I entered in in John's world, you know, from that point on. And and he's so positive.
And and Ingwe, is a he passed away about five years or so ago. He was in early nineties, but he was born in nineteen fourteen in Africa. And He's one of the founders of Wilderness Awareness School. He has a white, British, ancestry, but, he was raised by the local tribe, the the Kamba people there.
And, I mean, you know, not like a Tarzan story and more like like, you know, the the the his parents. There was, like, the house boy that was hired on the plantation or whatever. It was a Kamba. It would take him to the back to the village, that kind of thing.
And so he got deep love of nature that and and understanding of spirituality in nature that very few, Caucasians have or Europeans have. You know? And, he brought that to a little disorder in school and to and to John in that positive thing. And he he was also an ancestor of, lord Baden Powell.
His name was actually Norman Powell and, his grand great uncle, I think, who started the Boy Scouts and, had been involved with scouting troops since the forties. And, and then he, you know, renounced the scouts at one point because he didn't like what they were doing anymore and didn't like the lack of nature connection and he's just put all those same energies into wilderness awareness school and that's and so I had that mentoring too that, and that really was, you know, a driving force of what learning herbs has become because we're all about the same thing, you know, being positive.
Because it'd be really easy for me to, you know I'd probably make more money, right, if I was as after, if I put, like, like, things like, oh, the health care industry is scare and then we gotta learn this stuff. Otherwise, the world's gonna end. You know? Like, I could go there, But no.
I couldn't, actually. But I mean, like but but I mean, one could go there, and I think people do. And so I'm sorry. I kinda don't pay attention to them.
But and, but that's not the place where we go. You know, we we don't play on the fear and we don't play on the anger.
You know, that's not healthy and that's not good for the kids and that's not gonna solve any problems. So to me, if we stay positive, if we connect to nature, if people have great, if you know, experience because it can nature heals, you know, all wounds, you know, in a way, you know, emotional wounds. And so it's like when people spend time outside, when people connect with plants and or maybe you track animals or maybe you you get into, you know, learning about birds, or trees or anything, you're spending time outside, you know that, that that that it's it's a healing energy out there. And
so we can heal ourselves, which we have to he's not you're never done healing yourself. I mean, it's impossible. You know? Nobody's ever fully healed, I guess, whatever that is.
But it's a whatever it is, life's a process. And then if we are working on ourselves, rather than working on ourselves is a good way of putting them, then then we can actually help others.
You know? We can actually help others in which, that's the only way anything's gonna happen.
You know? Mhmm.
So I don't know where this started, but Well, again, it's a wonderful segue into my next question.
I think I just have one more for you, John.
So whatever else you wanna say, should just somehow magically roll You mean your members in this question?
Your members couldn't come up your your members couldn't come up with more questions.
You know, you're you're a hundred and two, John, and you're, you know, sitting on your front porch, sipping your dandelion coffee, watching the waves roll in.
And, you know, at this point, what are your biggest contributions to the herbal community?
Well, first of all, why am I sipping dandelion coffee, and why can't I just drink real coffee?
Well, I know you like dandelion coffee.
I'm trying to I mean, I went to highway twenty five.
Your dandelion icon here.
I want the I want the twenty You can have real coffee though.
Alright. Lots of benefits to that.
I can I can switch?
Let's see.
Didn't I ask you some good questions on there? I think I asked you where I left my car keys. Where did I leave my car keys?
Yeah. You also asked why it's more fun to watch the Seahawks than the Sounders.
No. No. No. I said Sounders.
Oh, I think you were confused.
Oh, two Washingtonians going at it.
Let's see, yeah, no longer New Jersey, I gave up that gave up my New Jersey citizenship in nineteen ninety five.
Let's see.
You know, it's funny that we're herbal community. You know, I'm always gonna you ask me a question, and I'm gonna be like, well, what what is let's define our terms here.
Because, you know, it's like, to me community, the word community, it's such an amorphous thing. It's so huge, you know? And to me, like, I can wrap my head around communities when it's like, okay, an Herb Mentor community, because they're all the people that are Herb Mentor. Or there could be, like, a town community in a town or maybe a local church or a, you know, or or a, you know, a school or or something that's, like, I I can wrap my head around, you know, where I can see that there's members or people who define thing in this community.
But it's like herbal community is something I think it can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people. Like some people, like if you're on Facebook talking about herbs and that's the herbal community or if you go to one of the big conferences, AIG or IHS or some of those, you might look around that and go, Hey, that's the Herbal Community.
And, and sometimes I think that kind of thing can kind of create a dividing line between people, like in us and they're like, hey, how can I be part of the herbal community? You know, that kind of a thing, you know.
So I like to think of the herbal community as everybody because I think we all use plants, you know, every person even the people that aren't aware of it like, you know, your neighbors, you know, they're using plant and they wouldn't be eating if they didn't, all the cotton that they wear are wool and their bodies is plants so we're all kind of, you know. And as Susan Weed said, once I asked her, I said, you know, how do you be an herbalist? She goes, being an herbalist is very simple, it's very simple. So all you have to do is breathe, you know, because you're having that exchange between, you know, the carbon dioxide and oxygen. Right?
So I mean, you wouldn't be That's a weird season response.
Yeah. I know. I see you on my mind. Yeah and I gotta tell you that a lot of this I think has to do with, you know, also who I've been mentored by in the yearbook community people like, Susan Weed and and and and my mentors like Eaglesong and Sally who taught me a lot about the wise woman tradition.
And and also, you know, having the honor to spend, like, four straight days working with Rosemarie Gladstar this summer, you know, like, on Rosemarie. That was so cool, you know, like, to be at Sage Mountain. I mean, that was the coolest thing. That was, like, getting this, you know, herbally, that'd be, like, getting to spend time with Bruce for four days, you know. It's kinda like it's like I kept like, wow, when there's Rosemary Glass Stars, that was so cool. Wow, I'm out to dinner with Rosemary Glass Stars. It's just a you know, Starstruck right for an herbalist.
But, but anyway, they wouldn't see it that way because that's not the way they are, but you know, I I think that, you know, the con contributions to those I mean, as long as long as, like, I'm putting a good positive energy out there and helping people, a goal goes back to the same thing and helping the planet and just in any moment, you know, contributing with what I think I can very do with my gifts, with my resources, what like if I'm in that place or what's the best thing I can do now to help people and be positive.
I you know, for for everyone who to me is irritable community, then then then I'm doing then I'm doing my job and I'm and and I'm doing a good thing. So that would be my contribution, you know, the contribution of just having done my best to create great experiences for people to learn and be inspired and transform. And I don't think you'd get much of a different response from, you know, Rosemary and Susan if you ask them too, you You know, like, I I don't, you know, because I think they might see the herbal community as something something larger than what, you know, than, what you might think about it.
So everyone listening to this, we're all part of the herbal community, you know, and so are the And you're a business child.
And don't and don't forget the plants. You know, the plants are part of the herbal community. They are the herbal community. Actually, they are the herbal community. We're the human community, I guess. Right? And we have to and so what we really have to do is learn to work with the herbal community and and and and, you know, for for inspiration and health and healing and and to, you know, I don't know.
It can all happen.
But anyway, there's my there's my response to that because I always that comes from like a wilderness awareness school and people would always like move to our area looking for the community and and by that, by the time people would be doing that, like, the wilderness warriors community was so huge, like international and there'd be people locally who would be like, where's the community? I'm like, what what community?
I don't know.
To me that that that community was always just the people and what they're interested in, you know, and Mhmm. And stuff. So yeah. So that is what I would do. So so what do we get to talk about now? We've been at it for a little while. This is fun.
Yeah. Yeah. This is fun. I was thinking about wrapping it up.
Do you have, do you wanna talk about the Seahawks or anything?
Well, that was an excellent game yesterday. I did watch it and over time, they redeemed themselves from that fourth quarter mess up.
But they shouldn't have lost against the Dolphins the week before.
But Rosalie and I do have this ongoing thing because I mean, Rowan and I go to and Haley go to soccer, say, sales Sounders games. And she always makes fun of me because she's married to a European who's totally not into soccer slash, you know, football but more into American football, really into American football, which is kind of funny.
That's see I'm revealing things about you too Rosalie.
I know, all right well looks like our time's up.
Let's just cut this, just gonna edit this. I'm you're not editing it. That's for sure.
Yep. Yep. So moving on.
It's well, well, it's been really fun to interview you, John.
And, you know, you've shared so much from, you know, things I've never heard you share before from, you know, how things started out and also, you know, future visions and, plans for the company. So I think this is, you know, be a great hope people listening have enjoyed it because there's definitely been some juicy tidbits in there.
And it might not happen again.
I think everyone appreciates you switching to the hot seat today, John, and just sharing a bit about your life and and everything with all of us.
And it might not happen again for another five years.
So it's been fun.
We could do it every month.
Well, we used to do Herb Talk Live every month, whatever. But maybe we can do one of those every once in a while, I guess.
Alright. Cool. So thank you. So wait a minute. I'm usually saying the one so sorry.
I messed up here. See, I'm so used to this being my show that I forgot that you're you were finishing it. Yeah.
I'm just gonna say it again.
Go ahead.
I can read the script over anyway, okay.
We should go go so at this point, then you say you say goodbye again or something.
Yep. Well, folks, that's all the time we have for today. Thanks for listening.
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