Tara Ruth:
John, I have a quote to share.
John Gallagher:
Please.
Tara Ruth:
Okay. It's by Robin Rose Bennett, and it goes, "To wake up to the magnificent beauty of the Earth, even for a moment, is to know that you are alive in an abundant, magical world."
John Gallagher:
And this is one of the many quotes, sayings, and bits of wisdom gathered by Rosemary Gladstar for her new book, The Generosity of Plants. And we are very fortunate to have her on today.
Tara Ruth:
Yeah, let's get into that interview. I'm so excited to share it with all of you.
John Gallagher:
You are listening to Herb Mentor Radio by Learning Herbs. I'm John Gallagher.
Tara Ruth:
And I'm Tara Ruth. Today we're chatting with Rosemary Gladstar. Rosemary is literally a star figure in the field of modern herbalism, internationally renowned for her technical knowledge and stewardship in the global herbalist community. She has been learning, teaching and writing about herbs for over 40 years and is the author of 12 books, and she's the founding president of United Plant Savers and founder and past director of the International Herb Symposium.
John Gallagher:
Welcome back to Herb Mentor Radio, Rosemary.
Rosemary Gladstar:
Thanks, John. It's always such a pleasure to be with you and just share with you.
John Gallagher:
Happy Spring, and I recently received my copy of your new book, Generosity of Plants: Shared Wisdom From the Community of Herb Lovers from Story Publishing, and I'm holding my copy right here. And it is an herbal book like no other.
We all use herbs for healing, and you've captured the spirit of herbs making this a book, a balm for the soul, and you also call it, "A feast for the soul." Generosity of Plans is a book of collected quotes, plant write-ups and beautiful imagery. It's a stunning book. It's amazing to hold. And I read that it all started with a little old brown notebook that you discovered.
Rosemary Gladstar:
Actually, it started long before that because I've been a collector of quotes for, I don't know, as long as I can remember, over 50 years. I love quotes because you can say so much in a simple line or two. Yeah. So, I'd had this huge collection that I've just... When I used them, I would use them when I wrote letters or I used them when I sent emails, definitely I'd use them to decorate conference schedules. And so I would post them whenever I could, but I just had so many and they were so reflective to me.
And then that little brown book, I was going through my mother's belongings after my mother passed away. My grandmother had lived with my mother for quite a number of years, and so my grandmother's stuff was mixed in with my mother's stuff. And I came across this little brown book, bound with old twine and then this old rubber band, and I recognized my grandmother's handwriting on it. So, I opened it.
And much to my delight, I found that my grandmother was also a collector of quotes. And the quotes that we collected varied somewhat. Hers were a lot about being a good steward, a good citizen in this country because she was an immigrant, and being a good citizen and being a productive member of society was very important to her. And then there was also beautiful spiritual or religious quotes because my grandmother was deeply religious.
But there was a common theme through them, and that was just really how to be good stewards on this Earth and good, loving human beings that wound through both my grandmother's and my quotes.
Tara Ruth:
This makes me think about too, in that beginning of the book, when you start that dedication to your maternal grandmother and you write that she first taught you about the generosity of plants, and I'm curious, can you share with us how your grandmother worked with plants and shared this knowledge with you?
Rosemary Gladstar:
Yeah. My grandmother was an herbalist in the way that many of our elders were. She used plants because they were inexpensive, common, and they were familiar to her, much more so than modern medicine. It wasn't that she didn't use modern medicine, but it was only occasionally when it was really absolutely needed. Otherwise, she used plant medicines and natural healing.
In part because my grandmother, she came from Armenia and she was actually a survivor of the Armenian Genocide. So, when we were children growing up, my grandmother would say to us that it was her faith in God, because she was a very deeply religious woman, and her knowledge of the plants that saved their lives because she knew what to use, her family knew what to use to survive and live on.
So, I think she felt it both a religious duty and maybe a spiritual duty to pass on that knowledge of plants to her grandchildren. I always like to point out, it wasn't like I was signaled out, necessarily. I mean, she shared that knowledge with anyone who wanted to listen. But I did take it in a very different way. From the time I was really little, those teachings really stuck with me and they influenced my entire life.
John Gallagher:
A quote you have in the introduction from your grandmother's brown book was, "I sincerely believe the word relationship is the key to the prospect of a decent world."
When I first started learning 25 years ago, I would pick up books and just based on how much information was in it and how much did they say about a plant and all this, and there's a place for those books. But this book, I feel like if someone reads this early on or just sits down with a cup of tea and opens just to a quote and thinks about just that one quote, this is a powerful book. This is, seems to me, this will be one of the most treasured books on my herbal shelf. When I read that first quote about the word relationship, you could talk a little bit about that?
Rosemary Gladstar:
Well, I think it's a theme of the whole book because of all the things that plants offer to us, their tremendous generosity to us, probably the biggest teaching and the biggest gift of that of relationship. So, it's our relationship to the plants, yes, but plants' relationship to the soil, to the air, to the community of plants it lives in, and therefore our relationship to all of that and one another.
So, I think I chose that quote from my grandmother's quote book as the opening because the entire book is about plants, yes. It's also about humans and it's definitely about relationships and all the interlinking circles that relationships bring to our lives. And I did want to comment too, John, on what you said about so often when each of us are first drawn into the world of plants, it's through our needs, oftentimes through our health needs. We have health issues or we want to perhaps use something that's less ecologically devastating and more ecologically sound or something that's not difficult to our bodies, so hard on our bodies. So, we're called into herbs oftentimes to our own health issues.
But once the plants have us, and this is true of almost everybody. Once we start to really work with the plants, we find out that it's so much more, it has to do with relationship. Not just about our health and well-being, but also stewardship and all the many ways to be in relationship with the world around us.
John Gallagher:
And that is one of the main sections of the book on preserving and conserving plants, along with preserving herbal heritage. And right now we're up against the lot when it comes to conserving plants and preserving herbal heritage. How do we all work to do that?
Rosemary Gladstar:
There's so many ways, and each of the themes in the book actually have many layers. So, we talk about preserving, it's about preserving our traditions of herbalism. It's about preserving our health freedom rights, about preserving the plants that herbalism is based on. So, there's just so many different layers. And I would say one of the big themes of course, is preservation and conservation of plants.
For all of us, when we love something, when we're really engaged in a relationship with something, our desire to preserve and protect it, is greater. So, one of the things I always point out to people is so often, again, like we were just saying, we're drawn into our plants out of our own need. But really, I think it's the plants that have sparked the herbal revolution or herbal renaissance that we're in because the wild gardens are in danger, and it's our task as plant lovers of the world to really help protect those wild plants. And we'll stand up for them more because we love and need them. We recognize that love and need.
So, how we do that? In so many different ways. It can be as simple as when we buy products to make sure that we're buying products that are ethically grown, where there's fairness in the workers who are picking them, so the medicine comes to us in a more healthier way. It's also really key is to make sure that we're not using native plants that are endangered in their habitats.
And no matter where we live in the world, whether we're in the United States and being thoughtful about the plants that live in the North American continent, we should extend that to the world, which is really our backyard these days. Making sure that the ginseng that we're using that might be coming from Asian countries isn't at risk or endangered. So, all of that plays into it. It's just being conscious.
So, from buying our products and then also joining organizations that work to preserve plants. That can be, in the United States, we have a wonderful organization called United Plant Savers, their sole purpose and mission is to preserve native medicinal plants. But we also have wildflower societies and hearty plant societies, filled with people who are plant lovers. They might not be using plants for medicinal purposes, they may not call themselves herbalists necessarily, but they're caretakers of the wild gardens and the plants. So, joining these organizations and being aware of the work that they're doing is really helpful.
There's just multi-layers. One of the things that we can each do is look at our own backyard or front yard, whether it's just a tiny little plot in the city or a farm or a wilderness retreat center, and just looking at how we can take at least a part of that and help restore wildness, help restore that area so that we can reintroduce some of the native plants back to that.
We call those plant sanctuaries. And sometimes when people think of sanctuaries, they're thinking of these things that big organizations create. But when we look at the word sanctuary, it just means sacred space. And really looking at any little bit of land, especially land in the city that's often been so abused, and reawakening the sacredness in that land is really lovely.
So many different ways that we can work on this mission together from what seems like really small ways, which oftentimes make huge differences, to large ways that sometimes don't always make the big impact that we want them to.
Tara Ruth:
I think you're so right though that there are these... It can feel like such a small action that we're taking, but they can have these huge ripple effects. Bringing in more native plants can bring in more native bees, and it just has such big ecological implications that can be really exciting and positive.
Rosemary Gladstar:
Yeah, Tara, it's so true, and you are so right about that. Anybody who plants, even just a small native garden of native species, they're reintroducing the native pollinators. All the native bees come to their garden. It is. It's really beautiful what a small act can do.
Tara Ruth:
This is making me think about another section in your book on gathering, and gathering plants, gathering knowledge, gathering together, thinking about the native pollinators gathering together. And one of the most remarkable things about your career, Rosemary, and what I've heard about it, is just the way that you have gathered people in herbal community across the world and gathered people in a mutual love for plants and the land. And I'm curious, what role do you think community plays in herbalism and how can folks who are maybe budding herbalists, who are new to this community, find their own herbal community?
Rosemary Gladstar:
That's beautiful, Tara. Yeah, I think community, people and plants, have always been so important to me. I always say I've continued to be an herbalist my whole life. It's been the path I followed from the time I was a young woman and through all my croneship years, because I love the plants so much, but I also love the community, the very diverse community of plant lovers.
Everywhere I travel in the world, they just seem to be some of the most thoughtful, caring, kind and active people that I know. Community is incredibly important in the role of all people, I think. And certainly when we look at plants, they always thrive in communities. And the more diverse the community, the healthier the community. And it's the same with people. When we're with other plant lovers, it's where we share information. It's where we grow, it's where we challenge each other to think in different ways to expand our viewpoints.
And it's also where we have so much fun when we gather with herbalists at these herbal gatherings, which we've been doing since, really, the early 1970s. It created this enormous family, a very diverse family, by the way, with very different mindsets and feelings and thoughts about the plants. Lots of times, very lively discussions. It's out of that that grew this tremendous eclectic, what I consider very eclectic western herbal model that we have here in the United States.
And for young people, or people who are people who are just starting the herbal path, there's many ways to step in. Thankfully, those herbal conferences still happen all across the country. Not quite as much as they did in the '70s and the '80s, but there's still some lovely events, also very bioregional events that are happening. They're smaller, but they bring people in the local areas together. So, that's a great way.
And also there's these wonderful online communities. It's not the same as gathering in a circle and sharing and going on walks together and singing songs together and all the crazy things that herbalists do. But it definitely is a way of connecting with other plant lovers and exchanging information, the challenges and the gifts that come your way. So, there's wonderful, wonderful online communities. John has one of them. Learning Herbs is certainly one, and there's many of them. Charis Lindrooth has a beautiful one called BotanicWise. We have an online community through the science and art of herbalism. So, there's many online communities.
The one thing I wanted to say about that is, as much as I love these online forums and communities that bring people together, especially because they can bring people together from all around the world, they don't really replace getting together in person. It'd be like having all your family gatherings by phone or online. It's not the same as sitting down to that turkey dinner together with the family, getting all your buttons pushed and everything happening there. There's a lot that goes on when you meet in person.
John Gallagher:
Yeah. Another theme is connection, since we're talking about this and how we're not separate from each other or nature, and I just want to read this quote by Guido Masé, "We live in a connected world, not connected by the threads of modern human-to-human telecommunications, but by our interactions with the plants, animals, mushrooms, microbes, soil and stone, water, air, fire, and light with whom we share the biosphere."
Rosemary Gladstar:
Yeah, I mean, that's such a beautiful statement there. I call those statements like botanical musings. The plants kind of just call us into themselves and reveal these just incredible truths. Yeah, I mean, it kind of goes back to what we were talking about before, earlier, when we first started about relationship and connection. The plants really connect us with the world around us in every way, and that's because they're really this Earth's most vast inhabitants. There's more plants on the Earth than there is any other living form. They certainly outnumber humans, and they're also the oldest living form of life on the planet. Or one of the earliest forms, and they go back to the very beginning of time.
And in that way, they're our elders. They really have so much to teach us in the sense that they've been here for so much longer than we have, and have really learned not only how to survive, but really thrive in abundance, right? And not only thrive. This is one of the things about the plants and the way they connect us to everything. They not only thrive in such a way that they live healthily, but they're one of those life forms that has so much life force or chi in them that they have enough to give out to others to eat and is medicine and is beauty.
So, the plans do have this way of just showing us that interconnectedness through the roots that go deep into the soil and draw up minerals and create food and medicine for us, that blossom into these beautiful flowers. It creates so much beauty and also medicine for us. And they also are the connector between the Earth and the heavens because they stand rooted in the earth, but reaching up to the heavens. And they collect sunlight, ancient sunlight, sunlight that's quite ancient, millions of years old. They collect that. They pre-digest it through an amazing process of photosynthesis and create food. So, I always think about this. When we eat plants, we're actually eating pre-digested sunlight.
John Gallagher:
Wow.
Tara Ruth:
I love that.
Rosemary Gladstar:
Yeah. It's kind of remarkable, isn't it?
John Gallagher:
Yeah, it is.
Tara Ruth:
This makes me think about a quote you share from George Washington Carver in the book.
Rosemary Gladstar:
Oh, I love that quote.
Tara Ruth:
Oh, it's so good. And he says, "I love to think of nature as unlimited broadcasting stations through which God speaks to us every day, every hour, if we only tune in." Oh my gosh.
Rosemary Gladstar:
Good old George. He was so wise.
Tara Ruth:
What a beautiful quote. And I love what you're sharing about sunlight and how the plants are this beautiful connection between heaven and Earth. And I'm wondering for folks who are, they're excited about plants, they're wanting to be in right relationship with plants, they have impulse to be great stewards of the land, but they're not necessarily sure how to start, or they're like, "How do I go about harvesting a plant and do this in a way that feels respectful?" What would be some of your recommendations for folks who are just getting started and wanting to be in deeper connection with the plant beings?
Rosemary Gladstar:
Such good questions, Tara. You can always read. There's always really instructions. I have that wonderful book that's called Medicinal Herbs: A Beginner's Guide. There's also these wonderful online beginner courses. But I always like to point out, it doesn't matter how much you read, how much knowledge you have in your head, it's not till you go out and you actually do it. You dig your first root. Start with a dandelion because they're plentiful. Always ask permission. That's what our elders have always taught us. Elders from all religions, all nationalities, all around the world.
Always ask permission when you harvest anything, a plant, an animal. Ask permission because you're asking for its life to come with you and its medicine to come with you. So, asking permission can just be a simple prayer, a little song, a silent gratitude. It can be just, "Thank you for this day and this plant in my life." And then just harvest a dandelion root and see.
So, read a little bit or go to a class. But remember, it's not till you actually do it. Herbalism is not a head science and art. It's a do. You got to do it. You got to get engaged in it. It's about engagement and relationship. Again, we always go back to that key, to my grandmother's opening quote, "It's all about relationship."
One of the good things about herbalism spreading so far and wide today is that there are a lot of classes for beginners, both in communities and online. There's really wonderful books that share the process, but I just always like to encourage people. So you read it, could even print out, "How do I dig a dandelion or a burdock root?" And then you just go out with your shovel and your prayers and your offerings, and you dig. And you bring that plan in and you clean it, and then you chop it and you say, we make tea with it or make a tincture.
And so that's how we all learn. We learn by doing. Every once in a while I take a class and I'm new at something, like first time I ever took a guitar lesson or I'm trying to learn Portuguese. And you always start off a little awkward, "Am I saying this right? Am I doing this right? Am I strumming it right?" But it's just by doing it, and then trusting that as we practice, we'll get better at it. And herbalism is actually, I want to say this for everyone, it's such an ancient art and science. It's been practiced by people around the world for literally thousands of years. It's encoded in us. Once you start to do it, it's remarkable how easily it flows through us.
Tara Ruth:
John, I hate to interrupt this interview with an absolute herbal legend, but we got to tell people about Rosemary's Remedies, right?
John Gallagher:
Yeah, absolutely. If you have enjoyed learning from Rosemary in this podcast or maybe one of her webinars or own one of her many books, I had this amazing experience where Rosemary years ago invited me to Sage Mountain where she lived, the botanical sanctuary that's still in operation and run by Emily Ruff. And Emily Ruff was actually there. And we created 20 plus some odd videos of Rosemary teaching people step by step how to make her remedies, and call Rosemary's Remedies.
And we went out on a garden and gave a garden tour at Sage Mountain. And I know you've watched these videos, Tara, and it's not really just about how you make this or how you make that. It's good to see it in person because sometimes that really helps versus just looking at a book, and that's why we did it. But the best part was all the little stories and background stories that Rosemary would tell during each video.
Tara Ruth:
That's right. It's the magic that she brings to each remedy, that story medicine and just that embodied knowledge and wisdom that she shares, and it feels so engaging. It feels like she's in your kitchen with you, helping you along as you work through each remedy or food or body care product that she teaches you how to make. It's pretty incredible.
John Gallagher:
It was my favorite production that I ever did in 20 years here at Learning Herbs.
Tara Ruth:
I can see why.
John Gallagher:
Going out to Sage Mountain, and an unforgettable experience. And anyone listening, you're listening to Herb Mentor Radio. And then Herb Mentor is our membership community where we have many courses. This is one of many courses that we have. Any interest you have, whether it's gardening or wild-crafting or learning remedy making from Rosemary, if you have questions, we have a community. We even do live. Tara and Kimberly do live events to answer your questions and talk about different topics. And you can get as a listener, like half off, right?
Tara Ruth:
Yeah. If you just go to HerbMentorRadio.com.
John Gallagher:
Yep. HerbMentorRadio.com. And then you can watch Rosemary anytime you want right there. And gosh, everyone, I really appreciate you listening to Herb Mentor Radio, to Tara and I. It really means a lot to us. We really enjoy this. And also, if you ever, wherever you're listening to this on some app, if he could rate and review too, that would be great on the podcast.
Tara Ruth:
Do it.
John Gallagher:
Yeah. Thanks so much. And we should get back to Rosemary, right?
Tara Ruth:
Yeah, let's do it.
John Gallagher:
Speaking of plants, I want to talk about the plants and how you have them arranged in the book. Every once in a while, you come across this a beautiful page, two pages together that have this nice watercolors and this great photos, and I just want to read nettle. "In my humble..."
This is you, "In my humble and herb-tainted opinion, there's no more delicious green than fresh-steamed nettles. Pick the nettle tops while still young, using gloves to protect your hand from the inevitable nettle sting. Or if you're feeling brave and in tune with the nettle spirit, try picking with your bare fingers. There's an art to it. Go slowly, with intention, grace and gratitude. Steam thoroughly, then sprinkle generously with olive oil and a juice of a fresh lemon, and top with a bit of crumbled feta cheese." And this one paragraph. But right there, you just showed what you were just talking about and how simple this can be.
Rosemary Gladstar:
Oh, and how delicious. I'm salivating as I'm hearing you read that. Oh, this is the season of fresh nettles, and there's nettle eaters all across the country now just going out in this religiously spiritual way picking their nettle and steaming it.
John Gallagher:
Oh, I bet. We've had a nettle soup tonight. We probably had about five pots of that in the last two weeks. Nettle spanakopita, we've had, and other things. There's this nettle in everything right now. I just love how you do this with some really wonderful plants, and then inter-dispersed with all of the quotes and everything. Love it.
Rosemary Gladstar:
Well, you know why, John? That was because I was figuring if people were getting an herb book, they'd want to get some information about herbs. I just picked randomly some of my favorite herbs, and then I asked some of my friends to write... I wrote most of the profiles. I just figured, "We better have something about the plants or people would be... That's actual information, otherwise people might be disappointed." And those beautiful little watercolors, they're all made from the plant press, the juice from the plants. So, all of those colors are from the actual plant on those pages.
John Gallagher:
Oh, wow.
Rosemary Gladstar:
Yeah. The graphic artist who arranged these pictures and stuff, she got so into these books because she was so moved by these teachings of the plants. All of her creative spirit came out and she just... yeah, each one of those are the actual colors from the plants.
Tara Ruth:
Oh my gosh, that's so beautiful.
Rosemary Gladstar:
I know. It is very beautiful.
Tara Ruth:
Wow. I feel like that just speaks to all the layers of care that have gone to this book, things that I didn't notice first pass, and just each time I revisit it, there's something else that jumps out to me.
This makes me think about the process of just learning about herbs themselves, how I can be totally surprised by a plant, even though it's grown near me my whole life. I went to Ragle in Sebastopol, where I grew up Ragle Park, and there was nettle growing there this last, I think last spring. And it was about 10 feet high. And I was like, "This can't be nettle because it's so tall." But indeed, it was nettle.
Rosemary Gladstar:
You're going to get such a kick out of this, Tara. I grew up in Sebastopol.
Tara Ruth:
Yes, I know.
Rosemary Gladstar:
I went to Analy High School, and when I used to play hooky from school, I'd hike over to Ragle. It was still a ranch then. It wasn't a park.
Tara Ruth:
Oh my God.
Rosemary Gladstar:
That's where I hung out at Ragle Ranch. Right among those nettle patches. I know exactly the nettle patch you're talking about.
Tara Ruth:
That's so sweet. Oh my gosh. Small world. Yeah, I grew up going to Rosemary's Garden Herb Shop. It was my little playground as a kid. I loved running through the aisles.
Rosemary Gladstar:
Oh, I love that.
Tara Ruth:
Yeah. Wow.
John Gallagher:
That's great, Tara. I didn't know that.
Tara Ruth:
Yes, so much herbal lore. I was looking at this quote, Rosemary, that you have, let's see, on page 14 in the book where you talk about... You're thinking about one of your favorite words, which is herbs, and then you realize that her is encoded right in herbs, and how it snuck up on you. And I never thought about that before either.
Rosemary Gladstar:
I'm always astounded how words are within words, and they're almost like hidden there on purpose. Or you take words and you flip them backwards, and it's their entirely different word that actually connects with the word when it's forward. So, when I saw the herb in there, the her in there, it reminded me of the Middle Ages when the wise women, and the men, but mostly it was the wise women were hunted and killed, tortured actually, for practicing the forest ways and the herbal ways and healing ways.
And I thought about how that word just became encoded and hidden in the word plant, in the word herb. And it took me years. I really, that only was maybe 15 or 20 years ago that I saw that in there. It just popped out and it was like, "Oh, look at this. There's a story here."
John Gallagher:
Yeah, the stories... I mean, and stories for me is how I remember things about herbs when I'm out and about. Always try to find a story. And then when you create your own stories, you never forget those stories. And then they become the stories that you tell others to teach others, to inspire them. And I think that's what really struck me too in all of these quotes as well, is all of these amazing herbalists and philosophers and all of their stories that they've shared.
Speaking of which, my story is when I was younger and teenager, early 20s, I wanted to do environmental activism and things, and I knew I wanted to help, but the ways that I was discovering weren't necessarily things that I could really do or sustainable things that I wanted to do activity-wise. And then I learned about learning about the Earth, that mammals and birds, the plants, the trees, from my friends, my good friend John Young, who was a teacher in my high school when I was a kid and now has written many books on nature and tracking, and he's the one introduced me to medicinal plants.
And then that is why I went in this direction because I thought if people could learn to love and have relationships with all of these plants, then maybe they'll start making some different choices and things. And then I'm looking at this Susan Leopold, who's director of United Plant Savers that you started with friends, and she says, "Herbalism is the gateway drug to activism."
Rosemary Gladstar:
Yeah, it's a great quote, isn't it?
John Gallagher:
You said before what we're just talking about, and in Susan's quote, I think that when people are learning and connecting, something starts to happen in them, where they start to sense that, "There's a difference I can make if I learn about plants, even just share them a little bit." And have you found that over the years? Because you have inspired and met so many thousands of people, and maybe have the benefit because all the conferences you've gone through to hear all the feedback that people. They probably come back the next conference and go, "Oh my God, Rosemary."
Rosemary Gladstar:
It's not just, "Oh my God, Rosemary." It's just, "Oh my God, the Great Creator." Really, I would say is what that explanation is about. And absolutely working with plants, working with nature, again, it goes back to that connection. We feel connected to something huge and grand. And some people call that God, which is a very common name. Some people call it the goddess, the Earth, the Great Spirit, whatever the name of it is, doesn't really matter. And the plants are just part of that.
But I think that for a whole lot of us, we have this green gene, something that's just been passed out to us, that connects us to that Great Spirit, the Creator of the universe through the plant world. And some people have it through birds or rocks. There's not one path to that Great Spirit, to that great energy source that is the universal source or power.
Plants are definitely one way that we walk that path, or that I would say they line the path as we walk it. And it is absolutely true, and we have that passion. We talked about this a little earlier. We become more capable and maybe more impassioned to stand up for the things we love. So many herbalists I know are activists in one sense or another. They're doers. And I think of that word activist. It just means action. It means doing something to make a difference. And again, that has so many layers of what that can be.
I think when Susan says that, she's really talking about it is the gateway to activism. You take a stand for the plans, for the land, for nature, because it needs our voice right now, primarily because the humans are the ones who are doing so much damage. We definitely, as inhabitants of this Earth, and one of the relationships of the Earth, we have been not really thoughtful of all of our relations, for certain.
And we're a very young species and we're acting like it. So, I think the plants are also just demanding that we grow up and act. But yeah, I do agree with you. There's a lot of different ways. Standing up for... I think about those three incredible herbalists who were very activists in many ways. They took a stand on Fire Cider, and they stood up and they fought for non-trademarking of traditional herbal products. And they were very active for almost... it took them almost seven years to fight that.
But in doing so, what they did then is they created a certain amount of protection for all of these traditional formulas that had been used and passed down, sometimes for decades, sometimes for centuries. And they were able, by fighting for that one product, to ensure that other products would not be then trademarked and therefore not available for other people to sell. So, all kinds of ways that we could be active, right?
John Gallagher:
Yeah, yeah And for me, it was just teaching, just being out there. I remember telling a neighbor asking me why I kept that patch of plantain or that weird weed over there or why I was picking at the dandelions, and people love hearing these things. And just when I was in my apprenticeship at Ravencroft Garden, Eagle Song, Sally King, and they called our little group. This was 25, 26, 27 years ago or something. They called our group... We called ourselves the Walking Seeds.
Rosemary Gladstar:
I love that.
John Gallagher:
Just to bring the seeds, bring the teachings to people in our own way. And everyone in that little group went on and did something really cool back in their communities.
Rosemary Gladstar:
You've been amazing. You've been a seed ball. You have just helped thousands of people through your online learning programs and platforms. You definitely took the activism seriously.
John Gallagher:
I don't know what else to do. That's all I've been doing since I was 20. "What else would you do, John, if you weren't doing Learning Herbs?" I'm like, "I don't know."
Rosemary Gladstar:
I always find when the plants want you to change direction, they change you. They call you in another direction, and it's hard to ignore them when they're calling.
John Gallagher:
That's true. That's true.
Tara Ruth:
I'm thinking about so many of the principles we're talking about here today around reciprocity and relationship and leading with love and really listening, and how all of these are such great principles. Even if someone, they get into the herbal world and they're like, "I think I'm just going to be someone who drinks herbal tea and has my little garden. That's going to be my main way of relating with herbalism." How much that can fuel them in their activist work wherever they're doing that.
Rosemary Gladstar:
Absolutely. And then that cup of tea, you don't know really what influence that will have with other people. You invite somebody to your home and you serve them tea or you walk into your garden. We don't always know the effects our actions have. And I just know, and I'm sure this has happened to John, and probably you too, Tara, as well, but you say something that you even forget that you say it, but that sends out waves out into the world, right? Somebody tells you, "Oh my God, thank you so much for saying that." And you're thinking to yourself, "I don't think I really said that, right?"
John Gallagher:
Are you having that experience with this book or for your friends getting in touch and going back to you and saying, "Did I say that?"
Rosemary Gladstar:
Not yet, but I'm sure they will. But a lot of times I would sit in classes and I would just be listening to these teachers, and it was like, "Oh my God." I'd write that down really quickly. And then some of it were just through emails or letters that they sent, and some were very well-known quotes that are little tidbits from books and poetry, et cetera. But a lot of them were just in conversations. And they would be some of our herbal friends almost, I think about it, almost everything that comes out of their mouth becomes like poetry.
And I had to really censor myself, otherwise it would've been somebody else's book because there were so many incredible quotes that they made. And that's one thing, too. I don't call myself the author of this book because I'm certainly not. I'm the gatherer. I gathered quotes from this very rich, diverse community of plant lovers.
John Gallagher:
Good point.
Rosemary Gladstar:
I was a gatherer, the harvester.
Tara Ruth:
Yes. I love how you also invite people to interact with these quotes through prompts throughout, too. So, it gives people the opportunity to engage with the quotes and how they would respond to the excerpts that you have in here. There's things about asking people what they're grateful for, what rituals they weave into their daily life to connect with the plants. It's a great way of fostering those interactions and relationship-building.
Rosemary Gladstar:
Thank you. It was sort of random. I write a quote down, and then it would be... Occasionally there would be something that would come up, like a question like that. Maybe it came up for myself even.
I also really like to credit so many people who helped with this book. Again, it was not a... Talk about that diverse community and how we can accomplish so much more when we work together. And this book was definitely a community effort. And my publisher, Deborah Baumuth, who's a dear friend of mine, this was the last book that she did for Story before she retired, and she was completely devoted to this book. It was really... probably would've just sat in folders on my desk if she didn't prompt me. And she really helped me a lot move forward and help with selecting the quotes and stuff.
So, she was just a wonderful co-creator in this project. I wanted to put her on the front cover, but she wouldn't let me. There's a little acknowledgement in the inside cover. But yeah, no, she was a great help with this book.
John Gallagher:
One of the most important sections that I guess they're all important, but what really struck me, because it was the honoring our elders section. It's just the way I was... I want to say, when I was at working with John back in the days when we had The Wilderness School, it was one of the most important parts of our work is always remembering and honoring elders. And I just love this quote here from... Is it Keewaydinoquay?
Rosemary Gladstar:
Yes, Keewaydinoquay. You're saying it right. Yes.
John Gallagher:
Okay, close. "Of all the creatures on Earth, the plants have remained truest to their original instructions from the Creator. They give generously of themselves for the well-being of all." And there's something about that... We work closely with folks from, the elders from, the Mohawk Nation, and a friend of ours who passed away wrote a great children's book called Giving Thanks, who was Jake Swamp. I don't know if you ever got a chance to meet Jake back in the day.
Rosemary Gladstar:
I didn't know...
John Gallagher:
And he would do the Thanksgiving address for us and whether it was at one of our events or we would go to Akwesasne and to Longhouse and meet the elders. And just something that really always touched me I think is really important is that whole idea of following their original instructions and how the plants just keep doing that, like she says. Yeah, I just want to talk a little bit about that in this section on honoring elders.
Rosemary Gladstar:
Yeah. Thank you, John. It's actually my favorite section too, and I have so many quotes by elders. So, when I saw that chapter, it seemed a little thin to me. But that's because there's so many elders. A lot of the elders quotes are scattered throughout the whole book because just these wise people who have lived so long and have the experience of that living and how they have so much to share. So, I love that. I love that chapter, too.
And the elders' ability also to look past a lot into the true nature of things, I think is really potent. And I think for our generation of herbalists, John, also, we learned from the elders because there weren't a lot of young people doing herbalism. So, almost all of the people that were still... There weren't a lot of them that were still teaching, were of the elder generation. And I think of people like Keewaydinoquay, and Juliet De Baircli Levi, Dr. John Christopher. It's just such a wide number of them.
I think I even have a quote in here by Don Jose Matsuwa, was a Huichol elder who, when I met him, he was already over a century old, he was like 102, and he lived to be 110 years old. It's documented.
Tara Ruth:
Wow.
Rosemary Gladstar:
Yeah, yeah. He was amazing. He was a Huichol shaman from the mountains around Guadalajara, but way up high in the mountain range. And they were very special tribe of people who were like a peyote culture. So, he has a very beautiful quote in there about how the teachings are for everyone. That was one of, I think, a really powerful teaching, that's important just to contemplate that there's always... There's so much, and there should be, so much attention placed on taking from other cultures because we tend to do that without a lot of thoughtfulness.
But on the other hand, especially in the herbal community, people shared their work with the plants readily and openly. That's how we've learned. So herbalism, just like the plants, we have indigenous plants, we have plants that are native to certain areas, but if you go back even a few thousand years, the whole habitat might have been different. And plants just, they move, they change, and so does herbal information. It rolls with people. It travels with people.
And always since people were traveling, they would trade information and herbs and seeds. We still do that. And I think that if we really were to look at any one system of herbalism, we would find that it was integrated with other systems, at least on the same continent, because of this trading of information and even trading of plants.
And what was so interesting to me is that so often the elders taught that. They would say, it didn't matter what blood, how much native blood you had in you. They looked at your heart, and they looked to see what was in your heart. And that's what would define you as an indigenous, which means of the Earth, spirit of the land.
Tara Ruth:
In that answer to that question, Rosemary, you were talking a lot about origins with herbalism and beginnings, and I'm thinking about how the western herbal world has shifted a lot since the herbal renaissance in the '70s. And looking forward, I'd love to know what your hopes are for the trajectory of the herbal world as we move forward into the great unknown.
Rosemary Gladstar:
Yeah, I know it's an interesting time, isn't it? I'm actually rather excited about a lot of the things I see, and maybe a little nervous about a few. But the thing that I'm so excited about is that so many people are recognizing that plants are living beings. They're not just studying them strictly as chemicals and what we can take out of them to make drugs. There's this recognition that not just the plants, but that everything is alive. Those elder teachers and those ancient teachings have really filtered in.
And we're recognizing that we are, I think, John, you said this earlier, we are nature. We are not apart from nature. We are nature. And so we're seeing that when we go to the plants. I mentioned this a little earlier about when we're digging that plant, we're not just digging food or medicine. We're actually asking the life form to come with us, the life spirit of the plant.
And so I see that a lot in the teachings. Now, if you look back at the herbal classes 50 years ago, or 20 years ago or 30 years ago, there was really just, "Here's how we make a tincture and here's how we make a tea, and here's how we harvest the plants that we need." There wasn't really a lot of information about how we can communicate with the plants, how we can learn their language, how we can actually use their plant spirit medicine to help us. It's not just their physical energy, but it's like sitting in the garden and how that makes us feel.
I'm excited to see that, teachers like Pam Montgomery and Carole Guyett. And there's just numbers of herbalists who are actually... And Stephen Buhner's teachings and Elliot Cowan's, these people who are actually some of them very left-brained, scientific-minded people, but who, by working with the plants, recognize the soul spirit in the plants.
John Gallagher:
So, everyone, you can get your copy of The Generosity of Plants: Shared Wisdom From the Community of Herb Lovers, in your favorite bookstore. Find an independent bookstore, an herb shop, ask them to carry it. That really makes a difference. And Rosemary, you can learn more about Rosemary at a whole lot of places online, but Science and Art of Herbalism, scienceandartofherbalism.com. You can find out about the home study course that Rosemary has, and it's a wonderful add-on to Herb Mentor.
Before saying goodbye, I was wondering, Rosemary, would you mind reading the very last quote on, I think it's the page 212, the Dr. William Mitchell? It just seems like it would fit with moving on.
Rosemary Gladstar:
Thank you. That's a beautiful quote. Such a beautiful quote. Yeah. Dr. Bill Mitchell was a renowned naturopath, an herbalist, and a teacher of the spirit. And this is actually from one of the last interviews he gave right before he passed away, and actually he was at Sage Mountain Earth, my beautiful herbal retreat center, when he gave this interview.
Bill says, "I think healing starts and ends with loving each other and with caring for each other as much as we care for ourselves. It's the golden rule. It's the way it works in medicine, in politics, and in every aspect of life. That would be my wish for people if I had no other words to say: to love one another."
John Gallagher:
Rosemary Gladstar, thank you for joining us again, and I'm really looking forward to our next chat.
Rosemary Gladstar:
Thank you so much, John. Have a beautiful day. Thank you, Tara. It's been lovely visiting with both of you. And to all of our listeners, thank you so much for being here with us.
John Gallagher:
Stick around for an Herb Note.
Tara Ruth:
St. John's-wort Latin name is Hypericum Perforatum, named for the hypericin content in the plant's flowers, and the tiny perforations in the leaves. These hypericin-rich flowers offer many healing gifts. Want to learn more about the healing gifts of St. John's-wort? Let's dive into three key benefits of this herb.
One, St. John's-wort for pain. St. John's-wort has traditionally been worked with to address nerve pain. St. John's-wort is a trophorestorative for the nervous system, which means that it can help nourish nerves to help restore and optimize their function. A St. John's-wort infused oil or salve can be gently massaged into the affected area to help address pain.
Two. St. John's-wort for mood support. St. John's-wort remedies can offer mild uplifting support for the mood. However, St. John's-wort doesn't lift everyone's spirits. And despite what claims may show up throughout the internet, this plan is certainly not a cure-all for depression.
Three. St. John's-wort for cold sores. St. John's-wort can help prevent cold sore outbreaks and shorten their duration. St. John's-wort is a fantastic ally to address cold sores because it nourishes the nerves, has as antiviral properties, and modulates inflammation. This plant shines in a lip balm or salve to help address cold sores.
And just some very key notes of caution here. St. John's-wort interacts with a lot of pharmaceutical drugs, including antidepressants, immunosuppressants, statins, and many, many more. Working with St. John's-wort can also cause photosensitivity in the skin for some individuals. So, proceed with caution.
Want to learn more about the benefits of other common herbs? Visit HerbNotes.cards to grab a deck of our top 12 Herb Notes. You'll learn all about herbs like elderberry, chamomile, and more. This has been Herb Notes with me, Tara Ruth. Catch you next time.
John Gallagher:
Herb Mentor Radio and Herb Notes are 100% sustainably well-crafted podcasts. Written, performed, and produced by Tara Ruth and me, John Gallagher. Can you do us a quick favor? Look up Herb Mentor Radio on your favorite podcast app like Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and rate and review us. We'd really appreciate it.
Also, visit HerbMentorRadio.com to find out how you can be part of Herb Mentor, which is a site you must see to believe. Herb Mentor Radio is a production of LearningHerbs.com LLC, all rights reserved. Thank you very, very, very much for listening.
